UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE WASHINGTON, D.C.

1 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE WASHINGTON, D.C -X 6ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON : 7BIOTECHNOLOGY AND 21ST CENTURY : 8AGRICULTURE : -X 10 11 12 A meeting in the above-entitled matter was held on 13March 5, 2012, commencing at 9:03 a.m at the United States 14Access Board Conference Room, 1331 F Street, NW, Suite 800, 15Washington, D.C 20004-1111 16 17 18 Russell C Redding, Committee Chair 19 Michael G Schechtman, Executive Secretary DEPOSITION SERVICES, INC 12321 Middlebrook Road, Suite 210 Germantown, Maryland 20874 Tel: (301) 881-3344 Fax: (301) 881-3338 info@depositionservices.com www.DepositionServices.com DS 2 APPEARANCES 4Russell Redding, Chair 6Michael Schechtman, Executive Secretary 8Dr Nicholas Kalaitzandonakes, Guest Speaker 10Cathy Greene, Guest Speaker 11 12Marcella Szymanski 13 14 15Committee Members: 16 17Isaura Andaluz 18 19Paul C Anderson 20 21Laura Batcha 22 23Daryl D Buss 24 25Lynn E Clarkson 26 27Leon C Corzine 28 29Michael S Funk 30 31Melissa L Hughes 32 33Gregory A Jaffe 34 35David W Johnson 36 37Keith F Kisling 38 39Josephine (Josette) Lewis 40 41Mary-Howell R Martens 42 43Marty D Matlock 44 45Angela M Olsen DS 2Jerome B Slocum 4Latresia A Wilson 7Non-USDA Officials: 9Robert Frederick 10 11 3 DS P R O C E E D I N G MR SCHECHTMAN: By the way, if you’d like to 4make your own presentation -5 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I’m more than happy to 6it, but it’s entirely up to you MR SCHECHTMAN: I UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I really have no particular 9sense of ownership of that stuff 10 MR SCHECHTMAN: Okay 11 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just try to a service, 12so 13 MR SCHECHTMAN: Well, I could it nicer, 14because I’d like to have your perspective here 15 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 16 MR SCHECHTMAN: Thank you Because you could correct 17everybody around this table, it’s a pretty good -18 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 19 MR SCHECHTMAN: 20them with any of us 21 Yes You seem to be able to balance So UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don’t have any ideology, 22you know 23 MR SCHECHTMAN: 24be defending something I have a hunch that I’m going to DS UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay You’d like to verify 2a report of it -3 MR SCHECHTMAN: I’d prefer, but I don’t want to 4be -5 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MR SCHECHTMAN: UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah on -Reporting and then, yes, I 8know what you mean MR SCHECHTMAN: And all the time If that’s not 10good, not comfortable to have, okay 11 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, thanks I’ll keep 12that -13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, how you doing, good to 14see you 15 MR SCHECHTMAN: Good morning 16 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 17 MR SCHECHTMAN: Good morning This is the third meeting of the 18U.S Department of Agriculture’s advisement committee on 19biotechnology in the 21st century agriculture or AC21 The 20third meeting since the Secretary of Agriculture brought 21back the AC21 after a hiatus of about two and a half years 22My name is Michael Schechtman, and I am the Executive 23Secretary and designated federal official for the AC21 24I’d like to welcome you all to this meeting and to 25Washington D.C if you happen to have come here from out of DS 1town I would like to welcome our committee members I 2believe 22 out of the 23 of whom are here, as well as some 3of our ex officio members as well from other federal 4departments and agencies, and all members of the public who 5have come here today to listen to our proceedings and 6perhaps to provide statements to the committee later this 7afternoon I’d also like to welcome our chairman, Mr 8Russell Redding, Dean of Agricultural and Environmental 9Sciences at Delaware Valley College, and former 10Pennsylvania Secretary of Agriculture and whom you’ll hear 11in a few minutes I’d like to offer my thanks to the U.S 12Access Board, whose lovely facility we are privileged to be 13able to use for this meeting, it’s a Board that discusses 14issues around accessibility for the disabled So this is a 15very, very nice facility we have to use here For this 16meeting, we will have Marcella Szymanski, who was recently 17on detail at USDA but is now back to her official job at 18the State Department, but is here at this table today and 19tomorrow to help this process along by taking notes 20throughout the meeting 21 Thank you very much, Marcella Before we start the meeting, I’d like to 22apologize to the committee members and to members of the 23public regarding the short official notice for this 24meeting There were some administrative delays that we had 25that put us off schedule, and given the timeline under DS 1which this committee is operating, we did not think it was 2possible to postpone this meeting I will make sure that 3the next meetings are a long notice to the Government, much 4more in advance, so this won’t happen again As always, we 5have a very full agenda, so we ask that when the meeting is 6in session, conversations need to be limited to those 7between members The public will be invited to participate 8by providing comments to the committee and to USDA this 9afternoon between 3:15 and 5:00 p.m I think we have some 10individuals signed up to provide comments at this meeting 11Members of the public who have pre-registered to provide 12comments, please be sure you have signed up on the comment 13list so that we can call you in order We’ll be a little 14more flexible about people who wish to comment at this 15meeting because of the delay in getting the notice out 16Anyone else planning to provide comments, though, please 17sign up this morning We will be preparing the minutes of 18this meeting, and a computer transcript of the meeting will 19also be available within a few weeks We will get the 20minutes and all meeting announcements up on the web The 21website address for the AC21 is pretty long, and I won’t 22state it here, but the website can be accessed quite easily 23by going to the main USDA website at www.usda.gov, clicking 24on biotechnology on the menu at the left, and then clicking 25on the committee The members of the press, you are DS 1welcome to speak to whomever you wish during the breaks of 2our meeting and before or after the meeting itself We ask 3that you not conduct any interviews or request comments 4from members while the AC21 is actually in session Mr 5Redding, our chair, and I will be available for questioning 6and comments at the end of each day of the meeting On 7housekeeping issues, we’d also request that all members of 8the AC21 as well as all members of the, of the audience and 9the press, please shut off your cell phones and any beepers 10while in this room They interfere with the microphones 11and with our recording of the meeting, in order to produce 12the transcript that we need, that we need to produce and 13publish on the web Bathrooms are located on the opposite 14side of the elevator outside, outside of the meeting room 15 One other important matter that I need to 16mention, please when you wish to speak, use the tent cards 17that are in front of you 18wish to be recognized Please turn them on end when you And also for the transcript, please 19do identify yourself when called on to speak 20the door, there’s a table with documents on it Just inside 21take only one copy of any document 22out Please We don’t want to run Among handouts is the detailed meeting agenda 23Please note that there are breaks scheduled this morning 24and afternoon Coffee is provided for committee members in 25the little alcove back there Members of the public note DS 1that there are coffee shops located on the streets where 2they have, to provide coffee for you, for this meeting If 3there are any additional documents distributed by AC21 4members, please be sure and provide me copies of those 5documents For each member of the public who speaks during 7the public commentary, I will need a hard copy of your 8remarks and an electronic copy so that we can post them on 9the website I’d like to repeat again we are planning for 10a period of one-and-three-quarters hours for public 11comments, from 3:15 to 5:00 p.m today We want to be 12responsive to the needs of the public and we’ll see how the 13meeting progresses, how we need to structure that time 14Let me repeat again that if you wish to make a public 15comment and you’ve pre-registered, please sign in at the 16door, and if you have not, but plan to do, or plan to give 17a public comment, please sign up at the door Commenters 18will have five timed minutes to provide their comments 19 At this meeting, we hope to build on the positive 20work of the first two meetings, and on the efforts of the 21four working groups that have been busily discussing 22relevant issues since our last meeting in December, in 23order to gather information for the full committee 24describe the working groups in a few minutes I will Members of 25the committee, you are well aware of the charge from the DS 10 1Secretary, but let me reiterate it for members of the 2public Within the overall context of strengthening 3coexistence among different agricultural methods, the 4charge is to address the following questions: one, what 5types of compensation mechanisms, if any, will be 6appropriate to address economic losses by farmers in which 7the value of their crops is reduced by unintended presence 8of GE materials? 9such methods? Two, what will be necessary to implement That is, what would be the eligibility 10standard for a loss, and what tools and triggers, for 11example, tolerances, testing protocols, et cetera, would be 12needed to verify and measure such losses and determine if 13claims are compensable? Three, in addition to the above, 14what other actions will be appropriate to bolster or 15facilitate coexistence among different agricultural 16production systems in the United States? 17 This charge was given with the caveat that work 18on questions one and two are to be completed before work is 19undertaken on item three The charge is provided to the 20committee and the public as a background document near the 21door In addition, we are keeping a compiled list of what 22we call parked items to be addressed when we get to 23question three That list is included within the meeting 24summary for the August plenary session near the end of the 25document I haven’t put copies of that document, of that DS 247 1preamble or in my case a pre-ramble on what we would 2for, what, how we would frame this And I’ve just captured 3a few notes focused on building confidence and quality in 4the U.S products, preserving decisions of BMPs with the 5producers, protecting the range of technological 6innovations for agricultural And then finally, the 7expectation of a minimum performance criteria or more 8appropriately, avoidance of adventitious trait drift 9amongst producers Those are, we can easily frame any sort 10of compensatory mechanism as a failure of, of those 11criteria, of, of that last objective and therefore as a 12goal to be achieved 13 MR SCHECHTMAN: Could you just repeat them 14again? 15 MR MATLOCK: Sure 16 MR SCHECHTMAN: A little, a little bit more 17slowly, I know folks are -18 MR MATLOCK: Focus on building confidence in 19quality in U.S products 20approach That’s the focus to this Preserving decisions on BMPs with producers, no 21prescriptive BMPs, the BM, the outcomes are what matter 22Protecting the range of technological innovations for 23agriculture, and that, that expectation of some minimum 24performance criteria for application of those technologies 25more and more appropriately just the outcome that’s DS 248 1desirable is the avoidance of drift of adventitious traits 2I’d be happy to share those with you 3fast? I this for a living MR REDDING: I still talk too Thank you, Mr Chairman Thank you Jerry, I think you were 5after that and then Chuck, we’ll just work our way around 6the table, sorry, and then, I lost track and people all had 7their card up here Jerry, go ahead MR SLOCUM: Mr Chairman, have we agreed that an 9ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? 10 MR REDDING: Absolutely It’s in the agreed 11column 12 MR SLOCUM: 13there, right? It’s in the agree column Solidly I mean is it agreed to, that’s what I’m 14asking here? 15 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 16 MR SLOCUM: 17 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 18 MR REDDING: Yes I hear one yes I don’t hear any Yes I think as to the, the prevention, 19the preventive piece that Michael’s mentioned, yes 20 MR SLOCUM: Okay, so that, could that be framed, 21that simply perhaps, maybe not in those words but that 22simply in whatever context we framed our paper to the 23Secretary and, that we all recognize that the third part, 24the prevention part, is more important than the cure part DS 249 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then why didn’t we use that 2phrase all along? MR REDDING: So preventive is, we put that in, I 4mean, just as a principle that we keep that in the agree 5column I don’t, all right, Chuck I think 6going to start with Keith and move around MR BENBROOK: Then we’re Okay? Thank you, Chuck Benbrook We 8need to remind ourselves of the political context in which 9our deliberations are undergoing and that there are a 10number of players both in, in our country and around the 11world who have strong concerns, pro and con, about 12biotechnology and that they are going to continue to engage 13these issues in whatever ways they have available to them 14to try to achieve their objectives Until they begin to 15feel that the system as a whole is beginning to respond to 16some of the really deep-set underlying concerns, I think 17that of all of the hundreds of conversations I’ve had about 18this, the single most deep-set concern is that we will lose 19the ability to have seed that is not genetically 20engineered, that, you know, 10, 20, 30 years from now, 21there will be no pure germ plasm available anywhere in the 22world 23 Many people have that fear and, you know, I don’t 24care how you wrap yourself in science, there’s, there’s 25just not going to be any way to convince the majority of DS 250 1the people that, that there, that’s nothing to worry about 2So I think that this concept of, of having as a principle a 3commitment to maintaining a, you know, a diverse and, and 4genetically clean seed supply to support future 5agricultural production is a, is a game-changer in terms 6of, of everything else that we’re going to talk about, and 7that we need to change the game, because with the way 8many people feel about it now, I mean for the Secretary of 9Agriculture to convene the meeting on December 20th and 10have the conversation and face an editorial four days later 11calling for him to be fired for even talking about it 12suggests that there’s some pretty deep-set sensitivities 13 So I, I think that, I really hope that one of the 14signals that comes out of AC21 is that some of the, the 15legitimate concerns that we all should be concerned about 16are being addressed in a significant way 17 Lynn has totally convinced me that there, there 18are, there is now one functional trait out there, the 19amylase corn, and there may be more in the future that pose 20risks for economic losses that are completely different, of 21another order of magnitude, that they need to be treated as 22a special case Some of the pharma crops that we dealt 23with earlier, well, I’d say belonged in, in the same kind 24of category In fact, in earlier AC21 committees there was 25a discussion of the need for a different category for DS 251 1traits that you would not regard as safe in general in your 2cornflakes Okay So I, I think we need to acknowledge that there 4will be applications of biotechnology that produce 5cultivars that are not going to be regarded as generally 6safe 7way And so those need to be dealt with in a different And I would suggest that this concept of grower 8opportunity zones that our friends in the alfalfa world 9have, are really pioneering now probably may, may be the 10way to go to try to deal with that extra and extraordinary 11risk but you know, I, I really believe that we need to, 12we need to acknowledge that that’s a separate issue And, 13and one that has to be dealt with in, in a different way, 14because it, it truly is different 15 Last comment, perhaps as we go forward we can, we 16can you know, reevaluate this, but perhaps it might make 17sense for us to craft a set of recommendations to the 18secretary under two scenarios One, is there, there isn’t 19an assumption, there’s a principle that, that the, the USDA 20and the private sector and everyone’s going to make a 21commitment to maintaining this ongoing supply of clean 22seed, and, and based on that being the bedrock principle, 23here’s how we would deal with everything else And then 24second, the same thing, but without that principle 25see how, how different both the size and scope of the And DS 252 1problem would become and the, the potential cause That 2might help galvanize interest in the importance of being 3able to maintain that, that ongoing supply of clean seed MR REDDING: Thank you Keith? And we’ll a 5quick wrap of the meeting, try to be done by five, is 6that -7 MR SCHECHTMAN: Which is now MR REDDING: Quick, quick comment MR KISLING: Mr., Mr Chairman, I’m going to 10take care of all your problems with adventitious presence 11 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 12 MR KISLING: Don’t you love it I’ve got a theory, and I got it 13from the Secretary himself, we got an e-mail last week, two 14weeks ago and I’m sure Dr Schechtman knows about this, 15that he is allotting 19 million dollars to the land grant 16colleges, 19 million dollars to produce, for people in the 17land grant colleges to produce a rejection team for, for 18organic farmers to reject the GMO gene Now, I think that 19it is, I think it’s facetious to think that we’re all going 20to go downhill there 21worse Everything’s only going to get There’s so many options out there of things that 22can happen that we don’t even know about Now, I know it’s 23down the road a ways, it’s not today’s, it’s not going to 24happen today But 19 million dollars and our wheat 25geneticists jumped all over that Our college, Oklahoma DS 253 1State, is real big on taking a run at this thing It’s a 2grant that’s been available to all land grant colleges in 3the United States We’ve got a lot of smart people out 4there and they’ll come up with an idea to, wouldn’t that be 5great if, if and I’m sure for the organics it can’t be a 6GMO, it has to be a, a naturally gene, a natural gene of 7some type, but how to reject GMO crops, genes from our 8crops So don’t give up yet, there’s still hope out 10there and this idea of, it’s never going to happen or, or 11just not, it’s all going to be downhill, I, I think that’s 12pretty facetious 13 MR REDDING: 14 MR GOEHRING: Doug? Thank you, Mr Chairman A couple 15things, and I’ll try to be as quick as possible because I 16know we’re at the end of the day I agree that seed is, 17is very important as a foundation for all of us in 18agriculture, very much so I am happy to say and I have 19witnessed and talked with the private sector, land grant, 20some land grant institutions that are making that a 21commitment in their cause, and then we would just continue 22to follow that and monitor it Concerning something that 23Michael Funk had said, I agree that there are farmers in 24the Midwest that probably aren’t cognizant of their best DS 254 1management practices and probably don’t follow them to any 2great degree unless you are a seed producer It seems this has given up on me, so I’ll speak 4up UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we need it for the tape 6-7 MR GOEHRING: Oh, there we go So yes, unless 8they have some reason or cause, there are those producers 9out there in the Midwest that raise field corn and they 10also raise sweet corn for farmer’s markets or, or other 11needs and they’ll look at maturities, planted them side by 12side, they’ll look at planting dates, they’ll look at ways 13to manage that because they don’t want to compromise the 14integrity of their sweet corn But there are efforts being 15made, there are people cognizant of those things But 16here’s another thought and we kind of alluded to it 17earlier Anybody in an identity-preserved market or 18organics or in seed production, maybe we should ask this 19question, we talk about incentives, we talk about maybe 20punitive damages, something Would those that are 21receiving a premium be willing to share that premium with 22those that are asked to change what’s happening in their 23backyard when they really don’t benefit in any shape, 24manner or form? 25 MR REDDING: Thank you Laura? DS 255 MS BATCHA: Thank you Laura Batcha I just 2wanted, I guess for the record just sincerely clarify that 3my comments before were neither intended to be fear4mongering or facetious, Keith So just to clarify that I 5think what I intended to communicate was in the absence of 6some positive developments, the situation would continue to 7worsen Now, our conversations here on a compensation 8mechanism is one focused area where we’re being charged 9with having that conversation, not to say that other 10welcome developments like you’re discussing in terms of 11plant breeding wouldn’t be entirely welcome as another 12relief valve for how we see the situation So I certainly 13wouldn’t want my prior comments to be misconstrued as not 14valuing those positive developments, and I think in terms 15of the perspective that I’m offering, the, your reality and 16your perspective is always dependent on where you sit in 17context 18 So I appreciate Josette, the challenges of being 19a smaller biotech company and needing to compete in the 20marketplace and I think that the discussion here shouldn’t 21be construed to put a burden on a company like yours to 22make you uncompetitive 23to come to solutions 24 MR REDDING: 25is that your card? That’s not the intention of trying So I just wanted to clarify that Lynn, you’ve got the final word on, DS 256 MR CLARKSON: Yes, it is UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MR REDDING: MS HUGHES: MR REDDING: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MS HUGHES: MR REDDING: MS HUGHES: Missy’s got hers up Pardon me? I had a card too -Yeah, I know we’re, we’re out of -We were over I’ll be short Okay Okay Go ahead I was going to try and end on a 10little bit of humor which was, I have three beautiful, 11lovely children, and over the past weekend I had the 12benefit of taking them to the Lorax And while sitting 13here listening to Chuck talk, all of that was going through 14my head, it was I am Chuck, no, I am the Lorax and I speak 15for the seeds So, but I want to make a final point and 16I think that we could even base it on the Lorax, which is 17we’re sitting here looking at what might be happening 20 or 1830 years from now Many of you have spoken about how 19you’re concerned about what’s going to be happening in 2050 20when the population has, give me the figures, it’s -21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 22 MS HUGHES: 23have to feed them all Nine billion increased, nine billion, and we So you know, it’s fair to be 24looking at what’s going on 20 or 30 years from now and to 25think about what we’re going to need and what’s going to be DS 257 1happening at that point I don’t think it’s fear-mongering 2and I don’t think it’s facetious When we went through the 3alfalfa process back a year ago, one of the alfalfa seed 4companies turned to me and said I will promise you clean 5seed 20 years from now And I said okay, that’s great 6What happens if you can’t it? What’s my compensation, 7what are you going to, and that was, you know, okay, 8thanks, that was a good conversation, I really appreciated 9that But that’s the challenge that we’re facing is we 10have to figure out how to it, what happens if it doesn’t 11happen, how we cure that problem 12 MR REDDING: 13 MR CLARKSON: Go ahead Lynn Clarkson This is a, an 14attempt to address Doug’s question about would a producer 15giving a premium share the premium with the farmer who was 16the source of the adventitious presence? 17think that argument would play out Here’s how I I think the farmer who 18is raising the premium crop would say okay, at the start of 19the year, my neighbor and I both started out with a farm 20We both made decisions about what we thought was best for 21us You were the, you were the source of the adventitious 22presence, but that crop was the best for you Your yield 23was going to be higher, it was going to be cheaper for you 24to take care of weeds and insects You chose that as the 25economically number one choice for your farm DS 258 I chose this one, it was the economically number 2one choice for my farm How does your decision trump mine? 3You’re already doing something that you think is the best 4for your farm? Why am I going to subsidize yours? 5asking you to subsidize me I’m not I think that’s how the 6conversation will go MR REDDING: All right Great discussion 8Appreciate the work of each of the members, particularly 9the work group rapporteurs I would ask that you know, 10tonight you think about again, sort of this 11agree/disagree/unresolved And I think tomorrow, when you 12look at the agenda, I mean that really is a bay of 13discussion All right And we can pick up with these 14conversations and decide what the context is, but I want to 15make sure that we leave tomorrow having at least you know, 16understanding where the four corners of our report begins 17to frame Okay? And what we with things around the 18seed purity and, and such 19enjoy the evening So think about it tonight, We’re back tomorrow morning at 20 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 21 MR REDDING: 22 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 23 MR REDDING: 24 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 9, 9:30 something Yeah I thought it was dinner Well -It’s on location DS 259 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought we had where 2were you? MR SCHECHTMAN: As soon as we go off the record 4I’ll, I’ll talk about dinner MR REDDING: So any, any final points? 6thank you for the facilities as well Okay And the 7operation of AV and such Thank you very much MR SCHECHTMAN: Okay, so MR REDDING: 10 If not, See you in the morning MR SCHECHTMAN: so we’re off the record 11thanks as well 12 (Whereupon, at 3:37 p.m., the meeting was 13adjourned.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 My DS 260 5% Digitally signed by Donna K Shute ELECTRONIC CERTIFICATE 9DEPOSITION SERVICES, INC., hereby certifies that the 10attached pages represent an accurate transcript of the 11electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the 12United States Department of Agriculture: 13 14 15 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON BIOTECHNOLOGY 16 AND 21ST CENTURY AGRICULTURE 17 18 19 20By: 21 22 23 24 Donna Shute, Transcriber 25 DS 2 261 ... third meeting of the 18U.S Department of Agriculture? ??s advisement committee on 19biotechnology in the 21st century agriculture or AC21 The 20third meeting since the Secretary of Agriculture brought... from out of DS 1town I would like to welcome our committee members I 2believe 22 out of the 23 of whom are here, as well as some 3of our ex officio members as well from other federal 4departments... the end of each day of the meeting On 7housekeeping issues, we’d also request that all members of 8the AC21 as well as all members of the, of the audience and 9the press, please shut off your