Isaac-M-Wise-Temple-Cincinnati-OH-1-5-18

EDUCATOR SEARCH APPLICATION RETURN ORIGINAL TO: (Preferably by E-mail) Rabbi Stan Schickler, RJE Association of Reform Jewish Educators 633 Third Avenue New York, NY 10017-6778 212-452-6510 sschickler@reformeducators.org CONGREGATION/INSTITUTION Isaac M Wise Temple / K.K B’nai Yeshurun STREET ADDRESS December 2017 8329 Ridge Road CITY, STATE/PROVINCE, ZIP CODE/POSTAL ZONE Cincinnati, Ohio 45236 TELEPHONE NUMBER 513-793-2556 FAX E-MAIL WEBSITE eperry@wisetemple.org URJ DISTRICT 513-793-3322 www.wisetemple.org DATE POSITION IS June 1, 2018 AVAILABLE FULL or PARTFull Time TIME Midwest POSITION TITLE DATE OF APPLICATION Director of Religious School ❑ Director of Lifelong Jewish Learning (DoLJL) or Director of Lifelong Learning (DoLL)—Responsible for oversight of virtually all education in the congregation; supervises all education and educational administration personnel When a congregation seeks to hire a DoLJL or DoLL, it should consider how the position will be appropriately supported with additional educational and administrative staff, all of whom would be supervised by the DoJLL or DoLL ❑ Director of Congregational Learning (DoCE)—Serves in an oversight capacity of the congregational school and has other congregational education responsibilities (which may or may not include supervision in the area[s] of youth programming, adult education, early childhood, and / or other areas of education) When a congregation seeks to hire a DoCE, it should consider how the position will be appropriately supported with additional educational and administrative staff, such as an Assistant Director of Congregational Education, all of whom would be supervised by the DoCE x Religious School Director (RSD)—Primary responsibility is direction of the religious school ❑Assistant Religious School Director—May be hired to provide additional educational support to the Religious School Director ❑ School Administrator—Primarily responsible for administration of the school and perhaps some educational responsibilities PLEASE INCLUDE A JOB DESCRIPTION WITH THIS APPLICATION Job Description: Full-Time Religious School Director Isaac M Wise Temple, the largest congregation in Cincinnati with nearly 1200 households, is seeking a full time Religious School Director Our Religious School has approximately 300 students (Pre-K – 8th grade) and is a vibrant place where formal, informal and family education blend to create community and a strong sense of Jewish identity The school is a critical and lively part of congregational life as a whole We are looking for a knowledgeable, experienced, engaging and hard-working professional who is excited about collaborating with the staff and laity to help continue to create positive Jewish experiences for our students and families Personal Characteristics and Professional Skills  Exhibits warmth and passion  Experience working with youth in a congregational and/or camp setting  Contributes excellent interpersonal, communication, organizational and administrative skills  Ability to relate sensitively and appropriately to children, teens, teachers and families  Experience with Reform Judaism  Comfortable with the Hebrew language  Facility with technology  Advanced degree in Jewish education, education and/or Judaic studies preferred  Desire to work collaboratively with a professional team  Commitment to mentoring, professional development and facilitating growth in teachers and madrichim  Possesses team-building skills, the capacity to instill trust, and the ability to understand and balance the many stakeholders in a congregational community Primary Responsibilities:  Oversee all education programs for Pre-K through 8th grade, in partnership with the Director of Family Engagement  Manage school operations during the hours when Religious School and Hebrew School is in session  Partner with Hebrew Connect Coordinator to oversee and schedule the online Hebrew Connect Program  Write and/or direct the development and implementation of grade level curriculum for Pre-K – 8th grade in the Religious School and Hebrew Programs  Support grade level teaching teams in planning and implementation of lesson plans and programs  Create and oversee master calendar for Religious School, Hebrew School and Family Education programs, in partnership with the Director of Family Engagement  Communicate with all teachers about school policies, schedules, programs, and events including writing and sending a weekly teacher email  Communicate with parents about relevant programs and events in coordination with Director of Family Engagement  Communicate with parents regarding their children’s needs through face-to-face meetings, phone calls, and correspondence both informally and formally  Manage the educational budget, in partnership with the Director of Family Engagement  Maintain overall school environment including maintenance requests and making new purchases Supervision:  Hire and supervise teachers  Support all faculty in day-to-day issues like classroom management and absenteeism  Supervise Hebrew Connect Coordinator  Be supervised by the Director of Family Engagement  Be provided with opportunities for professional growth and mentoring Other:  Work collaboratively with a cohesive, creative and vital team including rabbis, the Director of Family Engagement, and the Director of Youth Engagement  Assist in creating a positive, warm and empowering environment in the Youth & Family Education/Engagement Department  Attend relevant staff meetings  Assist in designing and encouraging participation in teacher professional development opportunities  Become an active member of the Cincinnati Jewish Education Council  Perform other job-related responsibilities as assigned by the Director of Family Engagement I DEMOGRAPHICS TOTAL NUMBER OF FAMILY UNITS THIS YEAR 1110 # OF FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN IN THE RELIGIOUS SCHOOL 207 FIVE YEARS AGO 1239 269 FUTURE DEMOGRAPHIC PROJECTIONS ARE TOTAL # OF STUDENTS IN THE RELIGIOUS SCHOOL Rlgs School 271 High School 74 Rlgs School 393 High School 135 AVERAGE # OF ANNUAL B’NAI MITZVAH 47 52 stable NUMBER OF STUDENTS ENROLLED BY GRADE PreK K 10 11 12 25 16 23 28 27 32 39 38 34 21 26 20 OTHER (specify): Madrichim Program Directed by our Youth Director with 64 teens participating each week in the religious school classrooms, in addition to their own educational program on Sunday evenings (Kulanu) DAY CARE OTHER (specify): PARENTS’ DAY OUT EARLY CHILDHOOD HEBREW BEGINS IN GRADE AND CONTINUES THROUGH GRADE CONFIRMATION BEGINS IN GRADE 10 ADULT PROGRAMMING Yes, very full range of offerings JEWISH PARENTING PROGRAMMING yes CAMPS (URJ REGIONAL AND CONGREGATIONAL) Goldman Union Camp Institute (Zionsville, IN) II DAYS AND TIMES OF CLASSES RELIGIOUS SCHOOL Sunday 9:15-11:45 am WEEKDAY EARLY CHILDHOOD HEBREW SCHOOL Wednesday 4:30-6:00 pm DAY CARE CONFIRMATION Sunday 5:30-7:05 pm PARENTING/FAMILY PROGRAMMMING Sunday morning, Friday evening, Saturday morning POST-CONFIRMATION Sunday 5:30-7:05 pm PARENTS’ DAY OUT CAMP(CONGREGATION ONLY) OTHER (specify) III PROFESSIONAL STAFF Even if they will not be associated with the congregation next year, please list the names of all current professional staff members Indicate if their position is full-time or part-time and their years of service with the congregation Additional lines are provided for other staff positions, if applicable NAME FULL or PART-TIME YEARS SERVED SENIOR RABBI Rabbi Lewis Kamrass Full Time 33 ASSOCIATE RABBI Rabbi Karen Thomashow Full Time ASSISTANT RABBI Rabbi Michael Danziger Full Time CANTOR EDUCATOR Barbara Dragul Full Time 24 ASSISTANT EDUCATOR Melissa Bellows Full Time EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR Sally Schott Full Time PROGRAM DIRECTOR Alex Burte Full Time YOUTH WORKER Ben Pagliaro Full Time EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATOR DIRECTOR OF MEMBER Kari Fagin Full Time ENGAGEMENT DIRECTOR OF FAMILY Rabbi Elana Perry Full Time ENAGEMENT Librarian Andrea Rapp Part Time 14 Does the professional staff undergo a regular performance review process? How often? Please include a description of this process, especially as it applies to the educator The senior staff is supervised by the senior rabbi and the professional staff is supervised by the senior staff member who is that individual’s direct report The process is ongoing evaluation and feedback, with some degree of formalization (written process of self-evaluation as well as the supervisor’s evaluation of the professional staff member) on an annual basis SECRETARIES/ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANTS TO EDUCATOR(S) TO RABBI(S) TO CANTOR(S) TO ADMINSTRATOR 4½ FULL or PART-TIME Full Time- shared between Religious School Director and Director of Family Engagement Full Time FT, PT, shared between, Executive Director, Director of Member Engagement and Communications, and Associate/Assistant Rabbi NUMBER OF TEACHERS COORDINATORS / DEPARTMENT HEADS PRIMARY Pre-K- Grade INTERMEDIATE Grades 5-8 UPPER BAR / BAT MITZVAH HIGH SCHOOL / POST B’NAI MITZVAH ARE THERE ANY FULL-TIME TEACHERS? CUSTODIAL STAFF (specify full or part-time) IV 14 YEARS SERVED 18 12 Ranging from 1-10 years tenure SPECIALISTS ART COMPUTER MUSIC DRAMA HEBREW LEARNING CENTER no LIBRARIAN Staff of ½ including Building Supervisor FACILITIES SANCTUARY- Plum Street Temple Seats 1100 NUMBER OF CLASSROOMS 24 CHAPEL- Sanctuary at Wise Center Seats 225 ART ROOM Yes LIBRARY 23,000 volumes MUSIC ROOM SOCIAL HALL / AUDITORIUM YOUTH LOUNGE SANCTUARY / SOCIAL HALL COMBINATION TEACHER RESOURCE CENTER Yes EDUCATOR’S OFFICE yes COMPUTER ROOM yes STUDENT LEARNING CENTER OTHER (SPECIFY) Board Room, Program Room, Subdivided Social Hall/Auditorium, Madrichim Room, Important to note that During Religious School, the Education Staff has full and prioritized use of the Calendar and all building space IS THE EARLY CHILDHOOD FACILITY SHARED WITH RELIGIOUS SCHOOL ? No AGE of BUILDINGS: SANCTUARY 1866 and 1976 SCHOOL 1995 OFFICE AREA 1995 If there is a satellite facility, please describe it Include size, distance from main facility, age, days/hours spent on that site, etc Plum Street Temple, located in Downtown Cincinnati was built in 1866 We are there for Shabbat mornings (B’nai Mitzvah), major events, and High Holy Days It is located approximately 15-20 minutes’ drive from Wise Center, located in suburban Amberley Village Our offices and religious school and Friday evening services are at Wise Center, built in 1976 and doubled in size in 1995 It is recently completely renovated V CONGREGATIONAL IDENTITY The Congregation / Institution was founded in 1842 and became a member of the URJ (UAHC) in Mishkan T’fillah and our congregational siddur, Avodat HaLev Mishkan Hanefesh The Shabbat prayer book used is The High Holy Day machzor used is Has the Religious School received ARJE Accreditation? yes 1875 (founding congregation) If yes, in what year?  What are the primary goals of your congregation? o To build and nurture a warm and vibrant Jewish community o To foster strong Jewish identities through meaningful and engaging lifelong Jewish learning o To uphold our responsibility to improve and repair the world through meaningful acts of tikkun olam o To nurture the spiritual lives of its members  What are the congregation’s strengths? o We have an important historic role of leadership in the local and national community that continues to this day o The congregation’s financial stability provides resources for dynamic and innovative offerings and opportunities o Our Religious School is thriving o The congregation demonstrates a strong commitment to supporting and engaging young families As a result, our community of young families and elementary-aged families is undergoing a renaissance of growth o We have a dedicated, creative and invested staff who are encouraged to experiment, innovate and try new things o Plum Street Temple and our deep roots of history o Culture of social action o Strong Lifelong learning program o Library of 23,000 volumes  What are the strengths of your educational program? o Our teaching staff is exceptionally talented, devoted, and loving, many of whom are proud members of the congregation o Our Family Engagement model provides an integrated, holistic approach to Jewish learning and living, allowing students, parents and families to feel more connected and more empowered in their Jewish experiences o “Torah Play” – A unique kind of storytelling, reflection and open exploration in a newly designed classroom that enables children to connect with Torah in creative ways o “Hebrew Connect” – Our online Hebrew School alternative for students in 4th – 6th grade that provides more flexibility to families for Hebrew studies One night per week, students sign on from their home computer and interact with the teacher and other students in an online virtual classroom o The “Open Room” – an imaginative and inspiring early learning center for our Pre-K and Kindergarten students o Our Madrichim program is strong, having a very positive impact in all areas of our school community that includes 65 teens who receive ongoing training, supervision, and a commitment to their own Jewish learning o We have an in-depth and continually evolving curriculum, including the most recent additions of a spiraled Torah curriculum and music curriculum o Our Rabbis are present and involved with the educational program every single Sunday that Religious School is in session VI  What qualities in your educator are most important to the congregation? o Passionate about Jewish education o Warm & engaging, great people skills o Collaborative & team-oriented o Organized, hard-working, accountable  The three (or four  ) most important priorities of the congregation’s educator should be: o Build trusting relationships with teachers, staff, children and parents o Support and guide teachers o Build upon existing curriculum to create exciting and memorable learning experiences o Devote attention to strengthening our Junior High (7th – 8th grade) program  The single most important thing an educator needs to know about the congregation is: o Wise Temple has deep pride in its rich past, but is more focused on the present and the future With clergy and staff that always have an eye toward innovation, and a congregational community that is willing to try new experiences, Wise Temple embraces the past, present and future with pride  The three most important issues facing the congregation in the next five years will be: o Building upon success with our young families – providing valuable experiences that lead them to want to engage further in Jewish & congregational life o Cultivating new lay leadership o Proactively responding to a changing landscape of Jewish and synagogue life INCUMBENT EDUCATOR Has the current educator been informed that the congregation / institution is in placement? On what date will the current educator relinquish his/her position? May 31, 2017 Yes, she has chosen to leave the position after 20 years of exemplary leadership VII COMMUNITY ATTRACTIONS General population of location JEWISH INSTITUTIONS IN AREA JCC Federation Jewish Family Service Central Jewish Education Agency Jewish Day School (which grades) ? Other 2,100,000 Total Jewish population 23,000 10 Congregations of which we are the largest Built in last 10 years a block away from Wise Center, which includes Day Care and Pre-School 1, also a Jewish Foundation which is a major Funding Source in the community 2-1 Orthodox and Community School, Rockwern Academy- Grades pre-school through Kulanu- Combined High School program on Sunday evenings of the Reform Congregations Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion (Rabbinical and Graduate Studies Programs) Hebrew Union College Library American Jewish Archives University of Cincinnati Judaic Studies Department Holocaust and Humanities Center (and Museum) Jewish Vocational and Career Services Jewish Community Relations Council American Jewish Committee Jewish Campus for Seniors- Cedar Village Continuum of Care Majority of members’ children Majority in public school in an urban and multiple suburban districts; some in secular attend public school, private school, private schools, others in Jewish day school or Jewish day school? University of Cincinnati Colleges, universities Xavier University and music Miami University (Oxford, Ohio) conservatories in the College Conservatory of Music- (CCM) at University of Cincinnati area include UC Medical School UC Law School Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra Cincinnati Pops Cincinnati Opera Cincinnati Ballet May Festival Chorus Broadway Series (6-8 Broadway plays yearly) Regional Theatre (multiple) What cultural Shakespeare Theatre opportunities are Art Museum, Contemporary Art Museum, available (e.g., CCM Theatre and Music Series symphony, opera, museum, theatre, Cincinnati Reds (MLB) sports, etc.)? Cincinnati Bengals (NFL) FC Cincinnati Soccer (currently minor league) College Sports (UC, Xavier and OSU, UK, and Louisville, each within 100 miles) Cincinnati is a major cultural center with a long rich history of high quality culture and arts disproportionate to its size and highly accessible in its low costs, ease of parking, and abundant offering and variety VIII REMUNERATION INDICATE EITHER A SPECIFIC FIGURE OR A SPECIFIC RANGE The “Proposed Salary” section should read, for example, “$60,000-$70,000” or “the minimum salary base is $60,000” or “the maximum salary is $80,000.” PLEASE DO NOT WRITE “negotiable”, or “open,” or “not yet determined” with no numbers included Without this information, your position will not be included in the ARJE’s placement listings It is also highly recommended that you NOT list remuneration as a “package.” $65,000 – $80,000 PROPOSED SALARY or SALARY RANGE Percentage of pension (RPB) in addition to salary (15% recommended) Length of original contract (two years recommended) 5% Two years STANDARD BENEFITS FOR THE EDUCATOR, IN ADDITION TO SALARY Medical-Hospitalization x Moving Allowance x Books & Periodicals Major Medical Congregational x Professional Dues x Insurance Membership Religious School Dental Insurance ARJE Conference x Tuition Long Term Disability URJ Biennial Early Childhood Tuition Insurance Regional URJ Gathering Sabbatical x Cell Phone x Laptop Computer Israel Trips Other (please specify) Social Security is required by Federal Law Is this position being listed with any other professional placement service? No If “YES” please indicate which one and the title by which it is being listed In making this request to the ARJE PLACEMENT SERVICE, the congregation/institution agrees that it will A In keeping with the high ideals of Reform Judaism, not exclude a candidate from consideration based on age, gender, sexual A orientation or marital status; B Keep the ARJE Placement Service informed of ALL interviews and their outcomes; C Reimburse all travel and related expenses for an Educator invited for an interview; Arrange the terms of its contract and/or letter of agreement with its Educator-Designate following the principles of the document entitled GUIDELINE FOR EDUCATOR CONGREGATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS (“The Blue Book”), as adopted and D recommended May 1988 by the Board of Trustees of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, and the National Association of Temple Educators; On acceptance of the contract and/or letter of intent by both the congregation/institution and the Educator-Designate, forward E a copy of the contract and/or letter of agreement for the files of the Placement Service, ALL files being confidential F NOTIFY THE ARJE PLACEMENT OFFICE OF THE NAME OF THE EDUCATOR-DESIGNATE WHEN THE SEARCH IS FINALIZED Name of person completing this form and position in congregation / institution Rabbi Elana Perry, Director of Family Engagement (direct supervisor) Rabbi Lewis Kamrass, Senior Rabbi Signature CHAIRPERSON OF THE EDUCATOR SEARCH COMMITTEE NAME Rabbi Elana Perry STREET ADDRESS POSITION 8329 Ridge Road CITY, STATE/PROVINCE, ZIP CODE/POSTAL ZONE Cincinnati, Ohio 45236 TELEPHONE NUMBER 513-793-2556 E-MAIL Director of Family Engagement FAX 513-793-3322 eperry@wisetemple.org Resumes of applicants should be sent to the following persons e-mail address(es) (please include more than one e-mail address): Eperry@wisetemple.org; Lkamrass@wisetemple.org; Kthomashow@wisetemple.org IF THE CONGREGATION/INSTITUTION HAS A MISSION STATEMENT, PLEASE ENCLOSE A COPY OUR CONGREGATION: This continues to be an exciting time in the rich history of our congregation We have recently celebrated the 150th anniversary of Plum Street Temple, a national historic landmark, and the 175th anniversary of the founding of our congregation, with significant member engagement including scribing two new Torah scrolls with over 1500 congregants (ages 2-100) participating in personally scribing a letter, over 60% of the members of Wise Temple It was a year marked by education, including a new Torah curriculum written and instituted with the congregation Our rabbis are instrumental in shaping our congregational aspirations in worship, lifelong learning, youth engagement, and member engagement Our endowment fund supports much of this creative opportunity, and the congregation participates enthusiastically and with warm response to worship, adult learning and a myriad of social action endeavors Our professional staff functions uniquely as a genuine team that supports one another Our office and building staffs are friendly and an important component in our team approach There is a good sense of wholeness and community within the congregation and its lay leadership, providing a partnership that is rich in potential All of this is a fertile soil for innovation and creativity 10 OUR SCHOOL: Our new Religious School Director will inherit a well-regarded and well-functioning religious school resulting from a consistent congregational commitment to education, as well as the exemplary leadership of our Director, Barbara Dragul who is retiring from this role after 20 years of extraordinary leadership and unique abilities to mentor and guide her teaching staff We enjoy a thriving environment on Sunday morning, with 300+ students (Pre-K through 8th grade) who fill the building with energy and a love of learning each week For over 25 years, family education has been a component of our religious school program including grade level family days for parent/student learning, parent parallel learning, and other family programs Our religious school is a priority to our rabbis who are all youth and education focused, including the fact that our rabbis are available every Sunday morning of school for youth and family engagement as well as adult education (even funerals and unveilings are not scheduled during religious school hours to ensure our rabbis’ availability) We are blessed with a fantastic teaching staff, including many who have been teaching in our school for more than a decade, as well as talented rabbinical students from HUC-JIR While we hope build on the success of our program, we also want to shape change and innovation in a focused design to be considered and implemented over the course of the next several years As we deepen our commitment to family engagement, we will introduce a structure in which formal and informal youth education, family learning, family worship and family social action experiences are seamlessly woven together for our families and students This will create possibilities for a new curriculum, educational approach, tone and message to which our new Religious School Director will bring significant leadership and greatly influence the design, shape and implementation of that vision over the course of the next several years This will be an exciting professional opportunity to build on a platform of success and to create something new, to provide leadership in change management, and to work collaboratively in teams of staff, parents and teachers in creating a meaningful approach to our families’ and students’ Jewish experience Our Madrichim program, supervised by our full-time Director of Youth Engagement, is a well-established program that actually develops the skills of our teens through focused training It includes 65 teens who serve in classrooms (2-3 madrichim per class) with roles that teachers help to guide Those teens all serve on Sunday mornings, and then return on Sunday evenings to our high school program, Kulanu (a 35+ year joint endeavor that includes Wise Temple and our other local Reform congregations with whom we share close relationship and partnership) Kulanu has its own separate lay board and is run by its own part-time director One recent example of responsiveness to the needs and desires of our families is the development of Hebrew Connect, a synchronous on-line Hebrew School that students participate in with other students in their class from their computers at home It was created in response to the busy schedules and wide geographic spread of students and their families for whom mid-week afternoon Hebrew is a significant challenge Despite its virtual setting, the small ”class” size, teacher student interaction in real-time, and occasional gatherings of the class at Temple, the program successfully fosters a sense of community among its participants Now in its 3rd year, Hebrew Connect educates more than half of our students in grades 4-6 instead of the traditional Wednesday afternoon program that takes place at the synagogue 11 OUR CITY: Cincinnati is a wonderful community in which to live Cincinnati’s greatest asset is its livability, its low cost of living, more relaxed pace, and fewer hassles than are frequently experienced daily in larger cities At the same time, the cultural opportunities are rich; there exists a great variety of top-notch restaurants, fine schools (including some city public schools and several public suburban districts), and the varieties of flavor and character that comprise the many neighborhoods in the area Our downtown area has experienced an unprecedented and exciting resurgence of activity, commerce, restaurants, parks, and residential living by people in every age group There are two major league sports teams, great college sports, an outstanding symphony and pops orchestra, and several highly regarded museums In addition, we have one of the leading zoos in the nation, as well as an abundance of parks, making it a wonderful place to raise a family You can get almost anywhere in Cincinnati in twenty minutes or less Housing costs here are among the lowest in the nation for large cities In general, your standard of living will be quite good in a very livable, relaxed city As a city undergoing a renaissance, here are a number of links to discover what is new and renewed about Cincinnati, the refreshingly affordable and surprisingly exciting city: https://www.jetsetter.com/magazine/1914/hipster-cities-in-america?ckey= http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/cincinnati-ranks-as-7th-trendiest-us-city http://www.forbes.com/pictures/eddf45gihi/no-9-cincinnati-ohio/ http://blog.forbestravelguide.com/5-reasons-cincinnati-is-on-our-radar http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/realestate/cincinnatis-downtown-finds-a-path-forward.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/travel/19hour.html http://cincinnatiusa.com/ Cincinnati is also an unusually rich Jewish environment for a community of its size, in some measure due to significant community funding, as well as to the uniqueness of the presence of the Hebrew Union College here since its founding by our rabbi, Isaac Mayer Wise, in 1875 As the founding congregation of the Reform movement in North America, there is a deep commitment in our congregation and our community to Reform Judaism, its ideals and its vitality As the Religious School Director in an intermediate size Jewish community and leading the largest religious school in the region, your impact here will be significant, and you will quickly become recognized in the community as an educational leader If you have a spouse/partner/significant other who is also a Jewish professional, our community has been establishing many creative opportunities for Jewish professionals in a variety of settings disproportionate to communities of our size As with any spouse/partner/significant other in any field, Jewish or general, we would utilize all our connections to help open doors for fulfilling professional paths to help Cincinnati quickly become home We look forward to engaging in conversation with you! 12