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UCL DEPARTMENT OF GEOGRAPHY From First to Second Nature: A study of the River Ravensbourne in South East London Lawrence Beale Collins Supervisor: Dr Ben Page 2010 DEPARTMENT OF GEOGRAPHY M.Sc in Environment, Science and Society Please complete the following declaration and hand this form in with your M.Sc. Research Project I, hereby declare : (a)that this M.Sc Project is my own original work and that all source material used is acknowledged therein; (b) that it has been prepared specially for the MSc in Environment, Science and Society of University College London; (c)that it does not contain any material previously submitted to the Examiners of this or any other University, or any material previously submitted for any other examination Signed : Date : Abstract The Ravensbourne is a streamfed river in South East London that rises in the village of Keston and meets the Thames in Deptford. It is one of the most engineered yet little known rivers within the Thames catchment which rightly suggests a history of utility and constraint rather than of social inclusion and accessibility. Council, commerce and community partnerships have driven forward a series of regeneration projects that have successfully opened up sections of the river to allow a more natural appearance and ecology to develop. Social access to the river’s landscape is at an unprecedented level while perceptions of nature are also growing positively. This thesis will discuss the political ecology of these productions of space and nature and whether Smith’s theories of second nature, a nature under capital, are being challenged by growing social interactions and the subsequent perception change of urban nature. The experiential commonalities of urban water among stakeholders in river projects, using Burgess and Strang for guidance, will be compared with their visions for the future and the practical issues involved in delivering that vision. Practicalities facing governance include flood alleviation engineering, work by Gurnell, Tapsell and Wharton will be accessed, and capital growth through urban renewal. Often contradictions may occur when capital meets ecological concern and shared values within this realm will be unwrapped to discover how catchment management is negotiating its way forward. Community interventions have proved successful in mediating the landscape between scientists and councils as regeneration projects move into public consultation. While bridging this gap other issues come to light, such as the appearance or nonappearance of health and safety concerns or what kind of nature should be included. The wishes of some sections of the community for successionled natural improvements have led to questions of aesthetics, the viability of a river with agency and a blueprint for urban nature. This cultural turn has added momentum to river regeneration as these new spaces provide greater social interest, yet there are constraints to full naturalization placed by funding and spatial availability. Keywords: River landscapes, river regeneration, political ecology, first and second nature, perceptions of nature, urban greenspace, social interaction & flood alleviation Acknowledgements I would like to thank Teresita Dennis for invaluable input and patience; the members of QWAG and Rivers for People that have had to put up with me in the summer of 2010, these include Chris McGaw, Nick Pond, Matthew Blumler and Trevor Phybus (of Pheonix Housing), the staff at Lewisham Library local studies department, the Environment Agency, Thames Estuary Partnership, the QUERCUS project, 3 Rivers Cleanup and lastly my MSc colleagues for creative input (and of course my supervisor, likewise) Word count: 14,998 (Excluding text in figures and boxes) From First to Second Nature: A study of the River Ravensbourne in South East London 1.Introduction 1.1 A summer walk up the Ravensbourne 1.2 Description and rationale 1.3 Aims and Objectives 1.4 Geomorphological context 2 Literature Review 2.1 Nature and Society 2.2 Productions of Space 2.3 Urban Rivers 3 Methodology introduction 3.1 Methodology rationale 3.2 Primary data description 3.3 Secondary data description 3.4 Personal motivations 4 Empirical Research 4.1 Historical both practical and spiritual 4.2 Ancient History 4.3 Holy wells and spiritual healing 4.4 Industrial heritage 4.5 A history of decline 4.6 The utility of nature 5 Discussion using ethnographies 5.1 Interviewees 5.2 How do local people describe how they experience the river? 5.2.1 Wellbeing and calming influences 5.2.2 Child’s play 5.3 Production of Space 5.4 Production of Nature 5.5 Flood Control 6 Conclusion 7 References 8 Initial Proposal & Autocritique 9 Appendix 1 INTRODUCTION 1.1 A summer walk up the Ravensbourne After a gruelling few hours clearing Himalayan Balsam, a nonindigenous invasive species, out of the river banks on the Ravensbourne at the Meadows Estate in June 2010, a small group of us sat on the grass verge by Bromley Road to take off our waders and casually debrief. During this post3Rivers CleanUp discussion a proposal was put forward for a walk upstream along the channel of the river from the Thames confluence to as far as we could get within about four to five hours. It was decided that where we were sitting was a good destination and achievable end target but that the likely starting point would have to be Brookmill Gardens, as a large barrier just upstream at Deptford Creek made a Thamesside start impractical. A few emails later and a date was set for June 30th with a 10am start, ‘meet at the ranger’s office in Brookmill – bring lunch’. A quick briefing (Fig 1), wader and walkingpole selection and headtorch check and we were off, entering the river just downstream from the Elverson Road DLR station. Immediately we got into conversation with a man sitting on his jacket on the shingle beach, he said he had seen foxes, badgers, kingfishers and plenty of herons over the last week, the kingfishers, he added, only appear at daybreak and dusk. Out of Brookmill and into the concrete culvert leading up to Lewisham centre, outflow pipes and bags of rubbish slung over the railings all creating meanders along the wide flat concrete substrate with banks of weeds slowing progress. Fig 1: Ravensbourne Walk 30/6/10 Passing the Tesco site, where my family once ran the Broadway Press, and up to the Ravensbourne/Quaggy confluence, the conversation turned to Lewisham council’s plans for the river. It was agreed that the Confluence Gardens plan, while highly contested, was a vast improvement on the current highsided and oppressive banking, a JG Ballardesque highway of concrete and brick (Fig 2) that laid testament to mid 20th century mindsets of overzealous flood control through hard engineering. Taking the right fork, we entered the first of many tunnels under roads, the river flattened, slow and featureless, there was little talking here as we felt the oppressive weight of urbanisation, our waders glided through the marbled blackness as shafts of light streamed through ahead, a beacon of life in this dead world. Between tunnels we saw busqueuers leaning over the balustrade above us as we soldiered on in single file and out the other side toward Cornmill Gardens and our second midstream view of river regeneration Fig 2: Ravensbourne/Quaggy confluence Shoals of dace and chub shot upstream in front of us and ducklings scattered as we edged forward, attempting to minimise the disturbance to this apparently abundant landscape. Nick stopped to dig out a giant hogweed, another species on the invasive hitlist, as Chris noted coltsfoot, burdock, speedwell and the ubiquitous buddleia (another nonnative species) amongst the flora. Trevor became engaged in conversation with a group of pensioners above as we entered the tunnelled culvert to the south end, their laughter echoing behind as some deep water focussed our concentration to the top of our waders and the first of many footballs drifted by (Fig 3). The culvert extended for 200m, on the way some stopped to pick cherries from a large tree Fig 3: Upstream from Cornmill Gardens leaning into our path, there was also a mature fig tree to admire, well out of our reach yet abundant in unripe and promising fruit. At Wearside depot we came across some nesting islands placed in the culvert by staff, chained platforms that rise in high water, these were populated by moorhens and we duly took the opposite bank with the message going down the line to keep silent. And so under the bridge by the adhesives factory (now demolished) and into Ladywell Fields. The Ravensbourne proper runs to the east past Lewisham Hospital while a new meandering Fig 4 Ladywell Fields south channel has been cut into the park, we stepped up into the open and made our way to the café for lunch. A roundtable discussion talked of the beauty of Brookmill and Cornmill and the task that lay ahead in naturalising some of the more shrouded and challenging sections. The feeling was that while many stretches were ugly, to break out of this concrete would be difficult as buildings and other developments had driven right up to form the culvert banks. As we edged back into the stream after lunch a dead chub floated by, this prompted talk of a minor pollution incident the month before that had been reported by a member of the public, however very little was known of its extent and whereabouts but it did rather complement the dead rat found earlier in the wade. To the south of Ladywell Fields the river, while a straightened channel, reaches the most naturalised (Fig 4) of all the sections on our route with banking and woodland or fields on either side. There was abundant flora and fauna, the deep turquoise of the damselflies (Fig 5) catching the eye while far in the distance wagtails darted from bank to bank Again there was almost silence among the group but this time induced by the sense of privilege almost as if we had been granted an audience with nature, Fig 5 Damselfly and a feeling of relief that there was a counterpoint to the concrete culverting. Beyond the banks are three fields that lie between Catford Bridge and Catford stations and Ladywell. This ‘natural’ stretch of the river was cleared and straightened by railway engineers in 1892 and toeboarded in sections through flood prevention work in the 1960s Sweeping east under the high bridge structure the river meandered through a series of high culverts before entering into the first of the two long tunnels we would encounter. Inside the tunnel the channel split into two, as a floodprevention measure this enables one channel to be kept clear if there is a blockage. Fig 6: Ravensbourne/Pool confluence We take the left and walk to the distant aperture of light, there is vegetation and debris here which we are careful to step over. We progress further to the Ravensbourne/Pool confluence, while the Pool, to the right, looks inviting we take the left fork and enter a long, straight and dilapidated culvert section that forms the boundary for the trading estate to the east and a small industrial complex to the west. Flow pipes seep an oozing orange liquid into the stream while builders rubbish and supermarket bags litter the channel, there is little wildlife here except for our sentinel, the yellow wagtail. Two policevehicle engineers peer over the fence telling us we are mad and that we would very likely ‘catch something’ from the river, at this point, given the amount of rubbish strewn everywhere, we would not entirely disagree. The positive correlation between sections of concrete culverting and the amount of rubbish thrown into the river seems obvious, there is a sense that if you demonstrate that the river is uncared for then the lead will be followed This unloved section of the Ravensbourne gave way to the tunnel at Southend, just before the agreed end of the walk at the Meadows Estate. The river enters a small tunnel, possibly 1.5m high and 2m across. 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At http://www.therrc.co.uk/rrc_case_studies1.php?csid=33 – accessed 23/07/10 River Ravensbourne Improvement and Flood Prevention Bill 1961 at http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1961/jul/10/riverravensbournecimprovement and accessed 5/9/10 Sainsbury’s Lewisham – At http://www.politics.co.uk/constituency/lewishamdeptford $1276440.htm – accessed 19/8/2010 Schmidt, Alfred 1971: The concept of nature in Marx. New Left Review Editions. London Section 106 explained at: http://www.idea.gov.uk/idk/core/page.do?pageId=71631 – accessed 2/8/2010 Smith N. 2008: Uneven Development. Nature capital and the production of space. Third Edition. University of Geogia Press. Athens, Georgia p 21 Soper, K. 1999 The Politics of Nature; Reflections on Hedonism, Progress and Ecology. Capitalism Nature Socialism, 10/2, pp. 47 – 70 Strang V (2001): Evaluating water: Culteral beliefs and values about water quality, use and conservation. Ipswich. Water UK Publications Strang V 2004: The Meaning of Water. Berg. Oxford Tapsell S (1995): River Restoration: What are we Restoring to? A case study of the Ravensbourne River, London. Landscape Research 20 (3) Pgs 98111 The Times 1968: ‘Flood chaos in southeast London’ at http://archive.timesonline.co.uk/tol/keywordsearch.arc (Ravensbourne) accessed 7/8/2010 Ulrich RS 1984: View through a window may influence recovery from surgery. Science 1984; 224. 420–1 Walford E. 1878: 'Deptford', Old and New London: Volume 6 (1878), pp. 143164. at: http://www.britishhistory.ac.uk – accessed 23/6/2010 Walters R.C.S. 1930: Holy Wells in the Valley of the Ravensbourne. Transcriptions from the ‘Sydenham and Penge Gazette’ August 1930. (Lewisham Local History) Water Framework Directive: A Description. At http://www.euwfd.com/html/what_is_the_wfd_.html accessed 2/8/2010 Water Framework Directive: Ravensbourne monitoring in ‘Water for life and livlihoods’ accessed 2/8/2010 at : http://wfdconsultation.environmentagency.gov.uk/wfdcms/en/thames/Intro.aspx Wharton G 2010: Evaluating the success of urban river restoration projects: The Quaggy A talk given to QWAG in the summer of 2010 Whatmore, S. & Hinchliffe, S 2003 Living Cities: Making space for urban nature Soundings. Journal of Politics and Culture Jan 2003 White K 1999: Quaggy River and its catchment area. Handscripted by the author, Ken White and accessed at Lewisham Library Local Studies. Ken White 12 Fermor Rd Forest Hill SE23 2HN Whitehead M (2009): The Wood for the Trees: Ordinary Environmental Injustice and the Everyday Right to Urban Nature. International Journal of Urban and Regional Research. Volume 33.3 Pgs 662–81 Blackwell Publishing Whiting P J and Bradley J B 1993: A processbased classification system for headwater streams. Earth Surface Processes and Landforms 18 603–12 Williams, B. 1998: St Blaise’s Well, Bromley, Kent. The Holy Wells Journal, Issue 6 1998 – at http://people.bath.ac.uk/liskmj/livingspring/sourcearchive/ns6/ns6bw1.htm accessed 25/06/10 [Source Online Archive]). Williams R. 1988: Keywords: A vocabulary of culture and society. Fontana. London Images: Ravensbourne source (engraving) C Knight 1842: The journey book of England – Kent. Charles Knight & Co Ludgate Street. London p51 Peter Pan’s Pool c1960 by Francis Frith Photography at http://www.francisfrith.com/catford/photos/peterpanspoolc1960_c520011/ accessed 10/08/2010 Ravensbourne Catchment map at http://t2.gstatic.com/images? q=tbn:062G1t2ryN1BDM:http://farm3.static.flickr.com accessed 9/8/2010 Wright P 2010: Bromley Road flooding 1968 at http://www.geograph.org.uk/profile/1782 accessed 12/08/10 All other photographs by the author Figures as text boxes are referenced throughout Dissertation Proposal & Autocritique From First to Second Nature: A study of the rivers Quaggy and Ravensbourne in South East London Aims and Objectives: The project will explore nature-society relations and the political, ecological and theoretical frameworks that dictate how the rivers Quaggy and Ravensbourne in South East London are flow from first to second nature, from the biological into social reality The purpose will be to uncover the relationships between actors involved in flood alleviation schemes, urban regeneration and biodiversity enhancement within this riparian context Both rivers have historically been viewed as problematic and even a threat to the residents of both Lewisham and Greenwich boroughs ‘There are people in my constituency who live in a perpetual state of anxiety because of the danger of flooding—people who have seen their gardens ruined on many occasions; people who know what it is to have their lower rooms inundated with filthy muddy water; people who in heavy rain watch nervously the level of the stream at the bottom of their garden; people who have had to endure all manner of smells and all kinds of rubbish clogging up the rivers and rendering them at times more like open sewers than anything else (Christopher Chataway, MP for Lewisham North) Chataway went on to describe the Quaggy as ‘a wretched stream’ (Hansard, 1965) This project will look historically at the ‘disciplining’ of the Quaggy and Ravensbourne following floods in the 1940s and 1960s and how this impacted on future decision-making processes including reasons behind the creation of Sutcliffe Park and Chinbrook Meadows It will investigate and create both natural and social capital discourses centering on recent river restoration projects and their contribution in adding aesthetic interest to the landscape These restoration schemes incorporated flood alleviation within designs overseen by both the National Rivers Authority, a forerunner to the Environment Agency, and QWAG, a river Quaggy action group run by the local community Discourses of social and natural capital as outcomes of the restoration projects will be linked to an examination of the hydrology of the rivers concerned and the studies and secondary data accumulated in the decision-making process prior to the undertaking of the aforementioned schemes The framing of Lewisham centre by the rivers Quaggy and Ravensbourne will be discussed with the actors involved in the proposed £250m Urban Renaissance Lewisham regeneration project This will define exactly how these rivers may engender frameworks of environmental discourses derived in part from the perception of an ecologically enriched public realm, the pragmatics of flood alleviation, capital growth and the metabolisms of ‘second nature’ This proposed hybrid network of people, rivers and urban regeneration may reach out beyond the flattening realms of strong actor network theory to create a more imaginative and inclusive socio-ecological future for the area and allow the rivers to rise from the quagmire and become a new foci for environmental politics and action The research questions: The locus for the research discussion will be an examination of the perceptions of the actors involved in the restoration, conservation and general corralling of the rivers Quaggy and Ravensbourne within Lewisham and Greenwich boroughs So, what is the motivation behind QWAG’s involvement in the planning processes and how they negotiate their aims with both politicians and the local community? How politicians perceive these rivers as part of the planning process and how is this concern demonstrated within the Urban Renaissance Lewisham project and as part of their Core Strategy? What is the importance of urban water both conceptually and pragmatically? Which theoretical frameworks can be discussed as part of the examination of relationships between river, people and the built environment? Marxian theory of urban metabolism and natural and social capital, Latour’s discussion on hybridity and actor network theory and Deleuze and Guattari’s rhizomes will be applied to find a realistic ‘match’ that incorporates all actors “If I were to capture some water in a cup and excavate the networks that brought it there, I would pass with continuity from the local to the global, from the human to the nonhuman.” (Latour 1993: 121) There will no doubt be a whole host of questions emerging during the course of the project that cannot be predicted here, hopefully enough to create a lively debate Literature: The initial literature research for this project focuses on urban water-based studies, actor network theory and Marxian urban metabolism as well as practical publications based on previous water-based projects undertaken by organisations such as Thames 21, The London Rivers Action Plan and Qeurcus (an EU-funded project for urban rivers), for example The main journals and books include: Castree & MacMillan’s ‘Dissolving Dualisms: Actor-networks and the Reimagining of Nature’ as this used the River Cole as the ‘quasi-object’ within the network (This river incidentally is included in work by Angela Gurnell, whose other work will be accessed for the hydrology discussion), Bruno Latour’s Politics and Nature to gain an understanding of ANT and it’s applications within nature-society issues as well as Sarah Whatmore’s ‘Hybrid Geographies’ Other works include: Deleuze & Guattari’s Thousand Plateaus, Michel Callon’s paper on the scallops and fishermen of St Brieuc Bay and more recently Erik Swyngedouw’s Dispossessing H2O, Stuart Oliver’s The disciplining of the River Thames (one of a few important papers in the ‘In the nature of cities’ publication), Matthew Gandy’s paper Rethinking urban metabolism etc, book section Urban Nature and the Ecological Imaginary and the book Concrete and Clay For methodologies Neuman’s Social Research Methods will be accessed as will Hansard and the British Museum’s media collection for archive work Landscape discussion will include Simon Bell’s Landscape (pattern, perception and process) and Malcolm Andrews’ Landscape and Western Art, hydrology will be aided by Stahler & Stahler’s Modern Physical Geography and possibly Meffe, Carroll et al Principles of Conservation Biology Methodology: Ethnographies to principally include approximately 15-20 long interviews (30mins or more) which will be transcribed and textually analysed, each piece of analysis will be scrutinised using Krippendorff’s guide to content assessment i.e How are the subject defined, from which population are they drawn etc Textual analysis will be undertaken possibly using keyword frequencies and word/phrase frequencies but this strategy may be refined closer to the project start date Secondary data will be obtained from Lewisham and Greenwich borough councils, Quercus, Thames 21, Environment Agency, the plans for Operation Kingfisher (overseen by QWAG) Archival work will be undertaken, looking into both governmental (Hansard etc) and media publications for relevant data The paper by PenningRowsell & Burgess ‘River landscapes: changing the concrete overcoat?’ may also relevant as it discusses interactions between hydrologists and social scientists (in Landscape Research 22. 1997). Other possibilities for methodologies include, diary-keeping for the duration of the project, photo-journals and Landscape Assessments of Sutcliffe Park and Chinbrook Meadows An initial risk assessment will be undertaken before the project is undertaken Timetable: AprilMay Revision and risk assessment of proposal AprilMay Background reading and investigation AprilMayJune Drafting of initial chapters (Aims, Methods, Literature Review) MayJuly Fieldwork and data acquisition July Analysis of research materials JulyAug Preparation of outline of contents and structure Aug Writing and revising empirical chapters Aug Preparation of figures Aug Final revision of text and typing draft to be submitted for inspection AugSept Typing/photocopying, binding, submission Outcomes, rationale and value of the research: The rationale for this project is grounded in the belief that urban water plays an integral part in the well-being of the community while its quality dictates to what extent biodiversity and ecosystems can flourish However, often the fate of urban rivers rests with politicians, the local community and committed activists rather than geomorphic and climate pressures The learned outcomes of the project should be: A greater understanding of the processes through which stewards of our landscape interact with human and nonhuman actors; a greater applied knowledge of the theories framing contemporary environmental and social science and finally this project will hopefully enable a greater understanding of the riparian framework within the subject area and how different strategies may be adopted as a negotiation between nature and the urban environment Preferred supervisor: Dr Ben Page, Prof Matthew Gandy or anyone that likes it References: C Chataway MP (1965): Hansard, HC Deb 09 April 1965 vol 710 cc91322 at http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1965/apr/09/riverquaggylewisham flooding (accessed 10/3/10) Latour, B. (1993): We have never been modern. Hemel Hempstead. Harvester Wheatsheaf (pg 121) Autocritique One aspect of ethnography collection, whether through interviews or casual conversation, and indeed through the gathering of empirical research material, is the appearance of the unexpected that can throw preconceived ideas into the wind like chaff from the seed. Remaining true to the thesis question requires constant negotiation with the material and often also means that important information (like 75% of interview transcription material) must be discarded because a) there’s not enough room and b) it represents another possible project. Examples of this include the hydrology debate with Geraldine Wharton where it became apparent that the flood alleviation scheme at Sutcliffe Park may be compromised by the oversilting of the Quaggy substrate. This could have been followed up with calls to Greenwich Council, the EA and further interviews with Matthew Blumler of QWAG, the Quaggy pressure group, but this was resisted simply because it seemed to be moving further away from the intended study Identifying key players within the subject area and booking early interviews is essential for maintaining momentum after the initial desk study, the downside to this is that questions raised by revelations later in the project could not be put to these individuals. If a decent relationship has been established with interviewees then there is no harm in sending them a later email with a specific question attached, this was necessary in the case of Matthew Blumler and Martin Hodge. The linking of key theoretical issues garnered from the literature review, and essential early reading for the study, to semistructured interview texts and the subsequent response from interviewees was illuminating. Things I should have done: Had some casual discussion with a key stakeholder very early on to see what the issues were. Probably isolated one or two key issues and concentrated on these rather than try and do too much. Researched the key theories early on so that I didn’t have to battle trying to understand and apply these during the writing up process, which was like herding cats at times. Best bits: Practical work with the Rivers for People guys and working on the 3Rivers Cleanup. Meeting the Lewisham Planners and QWAG for the different perspectives, tea in Matthew Blumler’s garden and Trevor Phybus’ ‘hippy shit’ interview about perceptions of nature 9 Appendix Excerpt of Matthew Blumler interview …Q So the power of succession being allowed to flourish and take over in a space that's offered to them (flora & fauna)? MB Absolutely, there's an extent to which we've done a little bit of that. If you plant deciduous trees they reflect the seasons and they add a little bit of dynamism and change to what otherwise is a landscape devoid of change and rivers, if allowed (noisy plane overhead) should have that impetus, a little bit of control over itself Q You worked hard in the development of Sutcliffe Park, how was it to negotiate with the stakholders involved and what proved to be the greatest constraint to the project ? Eh the I think the first thing to say is that the people who would use the space were very quick to pick up what potential the river had and what a positive thing it would be to restore the river we are talking about the Ferrier Estate in Chinbrook meadows and those around that area erm the difficulty was peruading stautory organisations and local authorities both politicians and officers and I think there are a number of reasons for that, a statutory organisation like the NRA and now the EA is full of experts and the usual sequence for making a big change for an area is for the experts to think of an option or if you're lucky two options and then for them to 'consult' to find out what people wanted either which option they prefer or any changes they would like to make but once you've developed your options there is a tendency to defend them and that certainly was the case with the Quaggy flood alleviation scheme and they deveoped an option wich was the chennelising option and that was defended without good reason and without looking into it properly and something that illustrates that really well was that we argued with them for 18 months about the practicality or otherwise of a storm water storage scheme even with an academic on our side coming to the meetings when one day with a big room full of engineers we tried to return to sutcliffe pk the chair said 'we are the NRA and we are the experts here and we've done all the calculations and Sut Pk sits above all surrounding roads and therefore it would be impossible to fill it with water and it would all fall off into the surroiunding roads' and I happened to have a foto in my bag of a neighbour when we were trying to imagine how much water could be held in the park and he's atsnding in the middle of the park and I'm standing by the road and he's below the road with a measured pole in his hand as we tried to measure the depth in the park and I took this out and passed it to the chair, after he's spoken all the engineers sat round the table and said the same thing 'don't be silly the park is above the roads etc.' and this is after 18 months and th is was the first time some one had said anything about this, they'd argued about flows and hydrology and anyway the foto followed the comments around the room and the chair said 'clearly we look very stupid we need to do some serious work on this and there's no point in talking we need to do some serious work on this, and when he did get in touch he said 'not only were you right but clearly it's going to be much cheaper' and it's clear there was a lot of defence going on without properly looking and if the idea could have been developed with people it could have 'belonged' to the engineers as well and there would have been no need for any of this and going on to local authorities politicians and officers, there is an element of this sort of thing but mainly it's about them tyring to second guess what their constituents would want and there is a tendency to shy away from any change Q What, that they would be nervous about the reaction MB Yes, politicians and officers we had we were told that people didn't want their park to be changed and that they'd lose their facilities (football pitches) that they had that people would be worried about drowning and the dangers by the river and people would be worried about flooding because they currently had concrete channels and these prevented them from flooding however if we ever had a public meeting those concerns would disappear in a moment, but it was very difficult persuading officers that every time we needed to do things we should have a public meeting to find out what people want, and if safety was ever brought up it would be discussed and very quickly people would decide that this was not an issue in one instance we had a 90+ year old in a wheelchair in a meeting at Chinbrook Meadows who responded when someone said 'what would you do the first time a child drowned in the river' he said 'when I was a kid we used to pretend we were pirates and we walked in the river all the way down into Lewisham from Chinbrook and he was talking about the time before it had been put into a concrete channel and interestingly that comment about what would you do when a child drowns had come from an officer of Lewisham Council who lived in the area and just brough it up because he was concerned that noone was bringing up safety over Sutcliffe Pk noone brought up the issue of safety someone brought up the issue of football pitches being lost and a teenager spoke very eloquently about how he wasn;t into football and that a lot of people were not into football and they would love a natural river and he got a standing ovation from everyone stood up, it was tear inducing, very emotional and the interesting thing was that there wasn't any anger in any of that and the meeting came to a very clear conclusion and a discussion and an airing of all the issues and that happened in both cases, Chinb. and Sutcl. whereas in Manor Pk we never got that because we were never allowed to have an open meeting with the offivers and the guy who was in charge of the works in the park we were again and again told that safety was a major concern in the park for people because they'd been consulted a questionnaire and a lot opf them had come back with concerns about safety this is very interesting because you bet a very different result if you consult with people as individuals (note as transcribing : this may be because there was a question about safety in the q/naire therefore people are obliged to answer it) as opposed to a discussion as a community because it is through discussion that a very different result is reached, becoming conscious of one another's thoughts. The opportunity to get people together to discuss these things just doesn't happen on a desktop of an offiver putting together a questionnaire Q Do the awards given to the Sutcliffe Pk site alter the way in which councils demonstrate their commitment to the site MB I think I don't know the answer to that I don't think it's clear it has made a big difference they certainly want all of these awards but i haven't noticed any change. Sutcliffe Pk is not used by primary schools because there are no toilets and they need to have access to toilets to take primary school kidss and it's a great shame that this hasn't happened, you'd think all this great status at a nature reserve and it's educational potential couldn't be clearer and they might try and find some funds for that … Rivers for People – Secondary Data Appendix 1: Questionnaire_1_Results LB Lewisham Rivers & People: URN: 100727 Summary - Selection The questionnaire was completed by 112 local people in November 2008 60% of people said that they rarely get out in nature, or they felt they had to travel along way to access nature These are exactly the people we want to reach through the Access to Nature project – those who are interested in the natural environment, and yet are not aware of the opportunities to enjoy it and learn about it locally 24% of survey respondents stated they didn’t think there was any nature in Lewisham borough, as we live in the city This is a key assumption that our Access to Nature project seeks to challenge – to show that even within an urban environment, we can enjoy, encourage and engage with nature Local people are interested in the natural environment Only 7% of survey respondents said they were not interested in nature – meaning that a huge 93% are! Whilst 65% of people questioned recognised that there are at least two rivers in Lewisham borough, only 33% knew there were or more Even more notably, 72% people questioned had never heard of the Waterlink Way, and less than 15% had any understanding of what it is All other secondary data sources are cited throughout and can be accessed if hyperlinks and publications are accessed