Minutes - Appendix 1 - Transcript

Appendix Economy Committee – 20 March 2014 Transcript of Item 5: Internships in London Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Can I again welcome our panel? We have four interns, or former interns, who have come to join us We have Adam Driscoll, Vishika Patel, Sandeep Dhillon and Rebecca Page Welcome, and thank you very much indeed for coming along and agreeing to give us the benefit of your experiences of being interns in London This inquiry is looking at the whole nature of internships I think it is an area that, in a sense, not much work has been done on Very little real evidence has been gathered on the way in which internships are being used in London and elsewhere in the UK for that matter As Chair, I wonder if I could start off inviting our panel of interns to, first of all, tell us about your internship and your experience of internships, and also education leading up to your internships Could you also tell us a little bit about what you have done on your internship, the organisation you have interned for and what you have got out of it Adam, can I start with you? Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Yes, I studied Strength and Conditioning Science, which is a subdivision of Sports Science, at St Mary’s University College, Twickenham I graduated in July 2012 and immediately started looking for work or internships I had done one part-time during my final year at London Welsh Rugby Club, and subsequently I did a two-week internship at Imperial College, London with Sport Imperial and, most recently, I did an internship over the summer with Brentford Football Club The last one was probably the least positive of all and has led me to leaving the sports science industry completely Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Thank you We will come back to some more detail on that in a minute Vishika? Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): I did a degree at Nottingham, Trent, in fashion management My degree was a four year degree where they strongly believe that during the third year you should an internship or a placement in the industry I luckily got an internship with ASOS and then, after my internship and graduating, they offered me a job at the end of my degree and I am now currently working there During my internship I worked in the buying department of women’s wear, where I worked as a Buying Assistant (BA) and got responsibilities like all the other BAs would have got I gained a lot of experience about the industry and a lot of knowledge about it as well Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): I studied English literature at Loughborough University in 2008 I graduated and I went on to a postgraduate degree in Marketing and Management at Loughborough again I finished there in September 2009 and then I was looking for work I was looking to get into the PR (public relations) or the marketing industry and I came across an internship for black and minority ethnics (BAME) at the Transport for London (TfL) press office I applied for that and was successful in getting into that internship I enjoyed my time there It was a nine-month internship and I got a real insight into the workings of a very busy press office I was given my own campaign to run during my time there and I assisted in helping out with a variety of different campaigns while I was there Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Was that your first internship? Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): Yes, that was the first one Prior to that, when I was still at university, I did a six or eight week internship for Man Investments That was in business continuity, but that was more about just trying to get an experience of working in an office-based environment There were a couple of areas I was looking to go into after graduation so it was more to get work experience Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Thank you Rebecca? Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): I finished my Masters in Environmental Science and Management in September 2012 At the time I could not afford to an unpaid internship so I was looking for paid internships and was unsuccessful I ended up getting a part-time job for nine months in retail I saved up and then I did a three month internship for a charity which was unpaid Then I did three months in Team London here, in marketing and communications, and now I am in my third internship for the Environment Unit in Research and Analysis Gareth Bacon AM: Why did you choose to take up an internship and how did you find it? One of the questions that we have is how people become aware of internships, so where did you find them? Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): There were a variety of websites I looked on, primarily the UK Sport and the United Kingdom Strength and Conditioning Association’s (UKSCA) website At the time there were lots of internships on both those websites and occasionally I would also be made aware of them by my former lecturers I chose to internship because it is such a competitive industry in sports science, there are so many people trying to get into the industry at the moment, experience is what sets you apart Once you have qualifications on paper it is really the experience that sets you apart, and that is the one thing they always ask for Gareth Bacon AM: Therefore, it is to differentiate your CV from other applicants for similar types of jobs? Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Yes Gareth Bacon AM: I am going to come back to you in a minute because I am intrigued as to why you found Brentford so awful, but we will come back to that Vishika? Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Through my university I had a lot of support for internships and placements As a university they did fairs where ASOS had a stall and you could go and talk to the companies and ask more about those internships and placements Then for my core specifically, ASOS came in and did a talk about the internships available and the different types that we could apply for and mostly it is exactly the same The reason I did an internship was for the experience and to know what the career you want to go into was all about, because you could go into something and not know if it is right for you or not, and because it is really competitive it is all about the type of experience you have Gareth Bacon AM: For you it was a bridge between studying and working, but it was also the opportunity for you to find out more about the industry you were going to hopefully go to work in, before taking the plunge? Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Yes It really helped with your fourth year Obviously at university it is a lot of books and studying in that sense but your placement year puts everything into perspective of how the industry actually works When I did my dissertation I did it about ASOS because I knew a lot about the industry and the company itself, which helped me with my degree as well It made me realise that is what I wanted to as a career Gareth Bacon AM: A positive experience from your perspective? Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Yes Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): For me, my internship at TfL, I was not looking for an internship at the time I had just graduated so I was looking for fulltime employment That was back in 2009 and it was quite hard to get work I saw an internship as a stepping stone to get some experience so that, when I would go to apply for jobs after the internship, I would have more experiences to talk about and might stand a better chance of getting fulltime employment Gareth Bacon AM: Again, it was a differentiator on your CV for getting a permanent job You were at TfL nine months I think you said What are you doing now? Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): I am still at TfL now Gareth Bacon AM: You are still at TfL, working permanently? Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): Yes, when I came to the end of my internship there were a couple of full-time vacancies that came up in the press office that I was encouraged to apply for I went through the full recruitment process and was fortunate enough to become a full-time member of staff Gareth Bacon AM: OK, so similar to Vishika then it paved the way forward for you into full-time work? Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): It did, yes Gareth Bacon AM: Rebecca? Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): Similar to everyone else, it was to get the experience What I found when applying for jobs and even paid internships is that I did not have the experience Even though I had done volunteer work and had qualifications, up against other candidates, they had a lot more experience so it was for that reason It was for networking as well All the internships I have done at the moment have helped by getting into events and doing networking Gareth Bacon AM: Similar to Sandeep, I suppose, has that led you to fulltime work or are you still interning now? Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): No, I am still interning at the moment Gareth Bacon AM: You are in your third internship now, so how long collectively have you been interning for? Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): It will be nine months at the end of April that I have done interning Gareth Bacon AM: For yourself and Sandeep it seems that you became aware of internships under your own steam, so you investigated things and looked at the market and found it Whereas it seems that, Adam and Vishika, you were given advice and pointed in the direction of internships Is that fair to say? Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): Yes Gareth Bacon AM: For Adam and Vishika, were you given good advice about which internships to apply for or was it simply, “You can go and look at this” and then leave it to you? Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): My core specifically helped to look at, firstly, CVs and cover letters They helped guide you on how to apply for internships We had different fairs for placement years in all different industries, and we also had the companies coming in to talk to us Through that information you knew exactly what a good internship was, and through lecturers and with peers, you knew exactly what you wanted to It was guided quite a lot but with all the advice given you knew exactly which internship you wanted to go for Gareth Bacon AM: What was your experience, Adam? Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Initially it was pointers to say, “These are the kind of places you look” The ones that I was notified of by former lecturers or other former graduates tended to be of higher quality The one thing that I had learnt and picked up on - as I think several people in my position on the same course as me did - was that they are different kinds of internships Some of them are known almost as ‘stand in the corner’ or ‘mop and bucket’ internships The UKSCA launched a position statement on this, that an internship should be a reciprocal thing They develop you as a coach as well as providing a service at the club Unfortunately, from an advert and an interview it is sometimes difficult to gauge to what extent clubs will offer this At Brentford it definitely appeared that you would have to wait until later in the season I started my internship at the beginning of the pre-season and I left just as the season was starting because I was running out of money They kept saying, “You have to wait You have to become more familiar with the players” They definitely wanted to ease you into it but at a very slow rate I not know how that compares to different internships My Imperial College London internship was two weeks long and they had us in for two days, the Thursday and Friday prior to the beginning of it, and took us through the kind of stuff they wanted to do, so they did a training segment On day one of the actual internship we could be thrown in at the deep end and that was probably the best internship I had Gareth Bacon AM: OK I think my colleague is going to be pitching in and asking about the detail of your internships I not want to queer your pitch, Andrew I am done now, Chairman Andrew Dismore AM: There are quite a number of issues that have come out of Adam, in particular You obviously found it a rather negative experience by the end of it, in that you are leaving the industry in which you presumably thought you were going to have a career, if you had been able to it What sort of things were you doing and did you find any of the training useful? Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Do you mean particularly Brentford? Andrew Dismore AM: Well, generally Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): On all of them there was a certain element of coaching At London Welsh I would be helping in the gym because there were up to 16 players in there at a time and only one coach He does not have eyes in the back of the head, so we would be coaching the players through some of the lists As professional players they know what they are doing so they not need too much advice At Imperial College London we were assisting with sessions, so it was getting a chance to practise the core skills of a coach At Brentford, well, I arrived at about 7.50am each morning I was there My first task was to put out bread, jam and cereals in a certain order or the ‘gaffer’ - as the manager is universally called at football clubs - would notice Then I would clean the gym During the sessions I would be timekeeper, water boy, ball boy and I would also collect physiological monitoring data, which sounds very good and it is something that I would need to become more familiar with In practice, I was asking players to rate on a scale of one to seven how hard they found the session; one being just completely relaxed and lying on the sofa at home and seven being if the session had been five minutes longer they could not have finished Another bit of physiological monitoring data I did was hydration analysis through urine samples It often felt like it was the jobs that, if the coaches themselves arrived there a little bit earlier or they tried to streamline the other things they were doing a little bit more efficiently, they would have had time to themselves They are not always the most pleasant of tasks, so it was more that they wanted someone who could those tasks for them and occasionally they would give the opportunity to coach One of the best opportunities Brentford gave was to work for their under-16s - their Milk Cup squad - where I would get the chance to lead part of the session, but with three interns and only two of those sessions a week you would be doing it once a fortnight rather than every day Andrew Dismore AM: Were you being paid by any of these? Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): No I did not get paid at any of these Andrew Dismore AM: You not think it was a particularly useful experience overall for you or was it? Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): The point where I snapped at Brentford, I was working in a pub as well at the time, parttime on the weekends I realised I was cleaning, I was making drinks and, just generally keeping an eye on things I was doing the same thing at the pub as I was doing at Brentford The difference was I was getting the minimum wage at the pub so it did not make sense Andrew Dismore AM: What would your advice be to people who are thinking about an internship? Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Be exceptionally careful Unless it is an exceptional opportunity not go for an unpaid one, unless it is a good opportunity Even if it is a paid opportunity, I would still be careful There are some which, even if they are unpaid, I think are too good to miss I applied a couple of times for internships at the World Cycling Centre in Switzerland They had applicants from all over Europe I did not get either of the ones I applied for It was a very small allowance they gave you for food and housing, but I think that would have been too good an opportunity to miss If something like that comes up, by all means apply for it The standard unpaid internship that is often seen at sports clubs; not go for them Andrew Dismore AM: Do you see a trade-off between being paid and not being paid depending on what the internship is? Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Yes, if it is not to be missed and so valuable to your CV then you might just have to grin and bear it, but otherwise you need to pay for rent, you need to pay for food, you need to pay to get to wherever this is every day Andrew Dismore AM: What are you doing now? Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): I have just retrained as a bicycle mechanic and I have started a job at Richmond Station Andrew Dismore AM: OK Vishika, similar questions to you You have told us quite a bit as well and you have already told us you find it a pretty useful thing to and some of the things you were doing I think you have said it is going to be a useful experience for your career because you are now working That is all correct, is it? Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Yes, definitely When I did an internship there [ASOS] you are given the responsibility, like any other employee I joined the skirts department and you get training on all the systems You start from fresh as if you were a new employee entering the business You get given responsibility I was given my own projects I got involved in areas that I could develop more so I knew exactly what were my weaknesses, what were my strengths, so they would help me work on those areas Obviously, as an intern it is a bit daunting going into a big industry You would have meetings every month where all the interns would get together and you all talk about how you are getting on It is all about learning within that year andw would also have talks from other departments For example, even though I was in buying we would have a talk from marketing, so I would get to know a bit more about what other departments are like and whether that was maybe something I would want to experience after Yes, I really enjoyed my internship I felt that I gained a lot of experience out of it and I understood the industry much more, which helped me with my degree It made me want to work for them after as well Andrew Dismore AM: Were you paid? Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Yes, I was paid That was one of the most important things as well because obviously London is so expensive Being paid helped me pay for rent and also be able to enjoy my experience as well Andrew Dismore AM: If you had not been paid would you have been able to it? Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): With the help of my parents I probably would be able to it, but without that I would not have been able to it Previously, a few summers ago before I did my degree, I did a six week internship with Marks & Spencer (M&S) The only thing that was paid was my travel, but that was only because my mum and dad could help me in terms of living with my aunty In my internship year it was really important that it was paid Andrew Dismore AM: What advice would you give to people looking for internships? Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Firstly I would say not give up I applied for a lot of different things and I know a lot of my friends applied for different internships and were rejected I think it is really helpful I think it makes you realise what you want to for a career Yes, I would say to keep applying, but then I think it would be the paid ones because in London it is really hard to an unpaid internship with the price of everything else Andrew Dismore AM: Sandeep, some questions for you You have already told us that you found it a valuable experience and now you are working where you were interning What sort of things they have you doing? Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): When I first started it was about having an induction into the organisation, so to understand what the organisation does as a whole and how it fits in within the Greater London Authority (GLA) For the first few months I was shadowing other press officers It gave me a good idea as to what the office does as a whole There are a lot of different areas within the press office and I was based on the campaigns desk We have an operational side of the press office,they look after Tube queries, police, cycling queries, roads and streets, that kind of thing Therefore, I received quite a broad understanding as to what the other press officers and what kind of work they Within that two or three months I was given my own campaign to run, which was all about getting people to cycle more, the London Cycle Challenge Obviously I was reporting to a line manager, but it was up to me to decide how the campaign should be run and how we would go about increasing the number of people who would get involved in the London cycle challenge It was down to me to work out what was the best way and what PR methods should be used to achieve that goal, and the whole experience was very good I was treated like any other employee in the office as well I was given the opportunity to what everybody else did I had regular meetings with my director to give feedback on how I was finding the scheme and that kind of thing; so it was a very positive experience overall Andrew Dismore AM: Were you paid? Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): Yes, I was paid Andrew Dismore AM: Would you have been able to it if you were not? Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): Probably not, no That was quite a draw when I saw the advertisement for the internship It said there would be a bursary that would come with the internship, although it did not go into specific details I was paid a monthly salary but if I had not been getting that I would not have been able to it I would have had to rely on my parents I had moved down from the northwest to London to the internship They are self-employed but back in 2009 obviously business was quite hard Andrew Dismore AM: If you had not been paid you would not have been able to it What would you have done instead? Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): I would have carried on looking for other internships but probably more than likely things that were local, back in the northwest I would have been able to live at home more than likely and travel to internships that were not too far away Andrew Dismore AM: What advice would you give to anyone looking for an internship? Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): I would recommend it It gave me such valuable experience I feel that if I did not get a job at TfL after that I would have been in a much better position than I was beforehand to be able to get employment elsewhere I think it is probably dependent on the organisation When you are applying you not know what the organisation is going to be like when you join My experience at TfL, for example, was that it was very well structured and I was given lots of work to and very much felt like a member of the press office like everybody else Andrew Dismore AM: Rebecca, I have similar questions to ask you What sort of things have you been doing? Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): In my first internship with the charity I was a communications intern, so I worked with the press and social media That meant I did a lot of networking Looking back on it and comparing it to the internships I have done at GLA, it was definitely more of a volunteer role I did not have that much responsibility, it was just supporting the staff that were there With Team London again it was paid, unlike the Environment Unit I worked in marketing and communications Again, a really good experience and networking During my volunteer work and the unpaid internship, I gained more responsibility in project management skills That then led into the internship I have now, which is in research and analysis It is more independent work than working in a team and I am gaining project management skills there Andrew Dismore AM: When your internship finishes what are you going to do? Are you going to get another internship if you cannot get anything else? Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): Yes, if there is nothing else about I have been asked to stay on as an intern past April but it will be nine months so, preferably, I would like a permanent job where I can progress I recommend doing an internship Personally I am against doing unpaid internships for the private sector, but I think charities are slightly different You have to look at it I know that some volunteering internships are 12 months long and they ask for you to give in a notice With the one I have I not have to givenotice I could leave at any point They were completely understanding when I had interviews and if I did get a job I could just up and leave That is the point of volunteering and that is the advantage of doing a volunteer internship but, yes, I would never go back and an unpaid one There is no way I could afford it Andrew Dismore AM: Going back to when you did the unpaid one, why did you take that unpaid one at the time? Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): By that point I had been working in retail for nine months I had applied for all sorts of entry level jobs as well as paid internships What I found was that I was up against not only graduates at my level, but also people who had had a lot more experience For example, people who had 20 years’ experience and had just been made redundant were going for my level jobs They were overqualified I was getting feedback from interviews that they were the ones that were getting the jobs They were overqualified, so I had to get experience and networking That is why I did the charity internship because I felt, “This is the route I want to go down I have to it otherwise I am not going to get out of retail” Andrew Dismore AM: What advice would you give to other people who are thinking about doing interning? Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): They definitely need to look around I not think they are advertised that greatly, especially the paid ones Definitely look around and see what you are going to get out of it If you get an interview, ask questions and see what you are going to get out of it, especially if it is unpaid You are taking a risk, especially if you are going out of a paid job to this internship You have to ask those questions about what you are going to get out of it Andrew Dismore AM: I think you all found your various internships by your own merits When you were doing your interview did you find other people who had got their internships through what used to be called - and probably still is - ‘the old boys’ network’, who you knew rather than any other way? Victoria Harrison-Cook (Chief Press Officer - Campaigns and Strategy, TfL): It is around 60 applicants Tom Copley AM: How many is it that you offer? Victoria Harrison-Cook (Chief Press Officer - Campaigns and Strategy, TfL): It is 60 applicants in total, but we offer two a year Tom Copley AM: Only two, so it is 30 per place? Victoria Harrison-Cook (Chief Press Officer - Campaigns and Strategy, TfL): Yes Tom Copley AM: OK, fantastic Actually, a lot of the other points that I have were covered in the previous questioning, so I will move on to Ben and Colum [McGuire] Ben, what you think is wrong with the way interns are currently recruited? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): A big problem is that there is a degree of nepotism in the way in which interns are often recruited Tom Copley AM: The old boys’ network? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): Yes, exactly, being recruited through connections rather than being transparently advertised Again, pay is an important issue here, in terms of differentiating between internships schemes which tend to be fairly recruited and those which not Where a company has something at stake where they are paying money out, even if it is not a huge amount, it is in their interests to try to recruit more widely We speak to employers often, sometimes bigger employers like KPMG or Ernst & Young, who apply a lot of very similar principles that they take in terms of graduate recruitment to their internship schemes They say that it is in their best interests to recruit from the broadest group of people They target not just Russell Group universities and traditional universities but also newer universities, as a way of reaching out and getting more talent Tom Copley AM: What would you say? How pronounced you think the bias is in terms of wealth and social background? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): It is really striking that people who cannot afford to join up on internships tend to be not just from poorer groups but also from regions in the north and in Scotland We talk often about how the vast majority of internships are in London Of the information that exists, for example, the Alan Milburn [Chair, Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission] report found that 80% of law internships are in London In the PR industry, we have done research with a trade body to find out that about 60% of internships are in London This means that when you are talking about expenses, it is not real to talk about expenses for interns because, if it is £5 a day, as we were hearing earlier, it does not cover your rent, it does not cover meals in the evening and it does not cover breakfasts, so the expenses are not real The cost of relocating to London is a huge one which is not covered by any expenses scheme Tom Copley AM: It is not just a wealth bias but a regional bias? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): Exactly Tom Copley AM: You might be able to just about scrape by if you already live in London Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): It is best seen as a problem which centres in London, but has massive national repercussions as well There is evidence that exists on this YouGov, for example, did polling with the NUS which found that more than two in five young people said the need to an unpaid internship represents a significant barrier to getting into work There was also polling done by Survation for the Trades Union Congress (TUC), which found that 84% of people over 35, so by that assume parents or older people, said that a young person in their family could not afford to an unpaid internship in London In the Wilson Review into business and university collaboration, they found that lack of work experience is a key barrier in getting into work There are two problems here One is that unpaid internships are unaffordable for people not just from poor backgrounds but on middle incomes as well Where they are both unaffordable and essential or very important in a lot of industries to get into work, you have a significant problem with social mobility This has been recognised by the likes of McKinsey, which has said that by providing unpaid internships, companies are exacerbating existing socioeconomic differences Tom Copley AM: We are going to come on to pay in the next section I was going to come to Colum again on recruitment and what is wrong with the way interns are recruited and how that can be improved Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students): Actually, some of it is around the disparity in which people understand what an internship is and they not really know what they are signing up for We not know a lot at the moment about how our members find internships, so there is a real range, from what people were saying before That is actually something we would be really interested to look into, if that would be welcomed We not really have any hard evidence at the moment There is a range from actively seeking opportunities yourself and looking around the internet, to university fairs and careers guidance and also friends or lecturers There are definitely a few ways, but the problems is that if there is such a wide range in the way you can seek internships, you are also less likely to be aware of what your rights are because you are not getting the right guidance, so you are more likely to end up potentially in an exploitative environment Tom Copley AM: OK Thank you Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Shall we move on to the thorny issue of pay? Tony, you are going to broach this Tony Arbour AM: Many of the set questions I have been given have been answered, but the first question I would like to ask relates to Ben You have been telling us about these rogue employers Why is Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs (HMRC) not doing more about it? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): They should be doing more about it, but we have seen positive movement, actually, in the last few years We have been working with a range of employer bodies representing a range of industries As I mentioned earlier, there is now a policy from the architecture industries to actually expel members of the Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA) on internship schemes which not pay their interns We are launching with the Public Relations Consultants Association (PRCA), which represents the PR industry, an effort to encourage big PR firms to pay their interns and making this case not just from a point of view of social mobility but also the selfinterest of those companies concerned What we are hearing from companies is that those companies that pay their interns are often able to get better people There is anger from companies we speak to that some of their rivals are turbocharging their businesses based on often illegal work That is something which is angering the good guys who play by the rules Tony Arbour AM: I can quite see that, but on the other hand, might enforcement of payment for interns be cutting off noses to spite faces? We have already heard from Andrew [Dismore] how that is having an effect as far as Parliamentary opportunities are concerned Jenny Jones AM: It did not stop him Tony Arbour AM: We are told that Top Shop, when, action was taken against them, basically said, “We will not have any more interns” Tom Copley AM: They cut them They reduced the number Tony Arbour AM: If there is an insistence that interns are paid a minimum wage, might that in itself reduce the total number of interns? In other words, is the payment of interns a barrier to the recruitment of interns? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): I not think so particularly, actually This is shown by the fact that many of the strongest relationships we have with organisations that represent employers are not just representing the big professional services firms of this world but actually SMEs that may not have a huge amount of money Even charities are getting on board with it Minimum wage is not a huge amount of money for companies to be thinking about in terms of their budgets What is often very expensive is hiring external recruiters, who may charge up to half a year of someone’s initial wages Gareth Bacon AM: That is very rare indeed The standard charge for something like that would be about 12% It would not be 50% They would get no business Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): OK That is based on a few we have heard from The cost of external recruiters can be very high and, as we were talking about earlier, you are not necessarily getting a particularly strong view of someone where you are only speaking to them for an hour or so An internship gives an employer that opportunity to try someone before they make that full investment to hire them From the companies that we have been speaking to, it is sometimes true that there might be a slight reduction in the number of internships if you pay, but not a massive one This is more than outbalanced by the fact that paid internships are dramatically more likely to lead to work There is evidence from the United States which suggests that paid internships are about 20% more likely to lead to fulltime work than unpaid internships What we want to stop is the cycle of people doing lots of unpaid internships which are not necessarily that useful in terms of getting into work, and perhaps doing one or two structured paid internships which lead into work Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): It is really useful that you provide advice like this to young people because most young people probably think it is good to have one internship after another Actually, as an employer, you would be much more likely to recruit somebody who had an actual job, even if it is not at that sort of level or not as fancy as the potential internship, rather than somebody who has had a series of internships It is important to get that advice out to young people themselves as well Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): Yes We have been working with BIS as well to provide advice to interns There is advice that we have codrafted, that will be going to universities across the country, giving interns themselves advice on what to look out for in an internship Tony Arbour AM: That relates to people, presumably, who have become interns? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): That relates to potential interns Tony Arbour AM: I have just looked at the Top Shop statistic and the Arcadia statistic In fact, recruitment of interns fell by 90% It was not a marginal dropoff in the number of interns Related to that - and perhaps this is a general question - there seems to me to be a substantial unfairness here People who sit at home and not seek jobs as interns get the Jobseeker’s Allowance, whereas people who are interns, unpaid interns not If interns were to receive as a matter of course at least the Jobseeker’s Allowance, you think that would improve the situation? Perhaps none of you think it unfair that interns not receive the Jobseeker’s Allowance Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): Our position is that clearly, when interns are not receiving the Jobseeker’s Allowance, it magnifies the point about it being a totally unpaid internship If you are doing an unpaid internship, you are not getting any source of income, which makes it extremely unaffordable We would not suggest that the best response is to just say that interns should get a Jobseeker’s Allowance, because there is a complicated relationship with Jobcentre Plus and the way in which people on Jobcentre Plus schemes have to be constantly available for work They cannot actually go from internships to the training at Jobcentre Plus We think that the simpler approach is the approach I was talking about earlier If there was a four-week rule, when after that time people on work experience were automatically redefined as being ‘workers’ and entitled to pay, that would strike a good balance between allowing short-term work experience and longterm paid internships Jenny Jones AM: I not understand why the Conservatives have a problem with businesses paying their way Surely this is a business cost, would you not say? Tony Arbour AM: No, this was a proper and legitimate question Stephen Knight AM (Chair): We are supposed to be asking questions of our witnesses, not of each other We have had a question Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): Just on the pay issue, let us not forget that most people pay their interns, so we are looking at a negative example and that is important and we need to make them go away, but let us focus on the positive When we have polled our members - HR professionals across the UK - they have said they pay their interns the minimum wage or above and actually only 1% said they not pay It can be done There is this correlation between pay and quality as well, which is worth emphasising Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Does anyone know what proportion of internships are paid, of those that are advertised? Tony Arbour AM: These people suggested there were lots and lots of unpaid internships Jenny Jones AM: I would imagine that in retail, fashion particularly, there might be a lot Do you know, Jo? Jo Moxon (Head of Talent, ASOS): I not know about anybody else, but we pay interns I not know how that compares across the rest Stephen Knight AM (Chair): We have some very good employers here and perhaps that is why they are here They are the good examples How typical from your experience is it that interns get paid? Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students): I not think we have any evidence across the board on that at the moment Like I said earlier, one in five people aged 18 to 24 have done an unpaid internship Tony Arbour AM: That is a lot of people Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students): Yes, it is Stephen Knight AM (Chair): That suggests that there is a predominance of unpaid internships? Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students): Absolutely, yes Jo Moxon (Head of Talent, ASOS): That draws us back to where we started earlier about what defines an intern If people are responding to a questionnaire saying, “I am an intern”, but the employer would deem that as work experience, then that is the discrepancy Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students): Absolutely That poses one of the actual issues We have to have a bit more debate around what it is and put it down That actually could be why those figures are like that Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): Internships are not as popular as you think We have surveyed our members asking about the programmes they offer and the top programme is still work experience and then apprenticeships or other schemes like school-leavers’ programmes Only 18% of employers offer internships However, we have seen a growing trend, so 44% of those offering it said it has increased over the last year, so there is an increase Tony Arbour AM: Is your membership not at the upper end, though? A very long time ago when you were the Institute of Personnel Management (IPM), I was a sort of IPM person Your membership primarily is based on companies that have an HR function Is that right? Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): It tends to be the larger companies, although we have independent consultants as well Tony Arbour AM: I guess - and perhaps Colum [McGuire] can tell us - that these characters who are working unpaid, would not be employed by the kind of firms which actually have an HR function In other words, the responses you are getting are not typical of employment as a whole Is that fair? Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): We have a lot of consultants who would work for other companies as well responding to survey, so our membership is composed of the public, private and third sectors and independent consultants, so it is a mixture Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Do not forget we have the example of Arcadia Group as one company that is a very large company with an HR function and everything else and is using unpaid interns Victoria Harrison-Cook (Chief Press Officer - Campaigns and Strategy, TfL): From the sheer number of applications we have seen, a lot of those people have done unpaid internships before We know that there is an issue within the PR industry, as Ben [Lyons] said, and it is something that the CIPR is keen to stamp out as well Mark Kleinman (Assistant Director – Economic and Business Policy, GLA): If it is work, it should be paid Legally, it should be minimum wage and hopefully the London Living Wage Just bear in mind that we would not want all work experience to only be in the corporates I am thinking about our SME sector We would not want to squeeze out genuine work experience for people with SMEs because it might encourage people to think, “I would like to start my own business”, but you need a little bit of exposure to what that really means While policing it properly so that there are not abuses, you would not want to completely squeeze out the unpaid experience Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): One small point to make is also that a lot of internships are not necessarily on the books They are offered informally, which makes it very hard to work it out A survey done in late 2011, of several hundred people, found that 87% were paid nothing or below the National Minimum Wage That may be too high and it was not a weighted survey in that it was a self-selecting survey, but it shows the massive differential in terms of what we are hearing from the research that has been done It would be very valuable to research into the nature of internships and unpaid internships in London specifically because everything suggests that where many employers in other parts of the country are not necessarily using interns, in London they are definitely a very big feature of the economy Tom Copley AM: On the Arcadia Group, I would have thought that with the amount of tax Philip Green [CEO, Arcadia Group Ltd] avoids, he could afford to pay his interns He channels it all offshore He said: “There was one girl who made a complaint who has spoiled it for thousands of people We had 300 or 400 kids interning Now it is about 30.” Ben, would you not say that perhaps it was better to have 30 paid interns when it is open to a wider range of society, than 300 unpaid interns who are going to be necessarily restricted particularly by the background that they come from? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): That is true and also, if you are having hundreds and hundreds of interns in a company, you could not be sure You would assume that potentially the quality of skills that those people are getting is not going to be as high because there may just be a rolling basis of people They not really need people to be particularly concerned They not have line managers Therefore, if you are only making it available to that minority of people who can afford to work for free in London for months and months on end, you are also having a scheme where actually those 300 people are not necessarily getting particularly good skills Tom Copley AM: It is about quality, not just about quantity? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): Exactly Tom Copley AM: Yes I see you are nodding there, Katerina Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): Yes, I would agree As I am sure I said earlier, I cannot imagine that all those line managers will sit down and read our guide and then implement it You have to have somebody who will look after them, mentor them and buddy them In terms of following up and providing advice on finding a job, it would be impossible with a large volume of people Yes, it is probably compromising the quality quite significantly Tom Copley AM: There seems to be quite a lot of consensus Just a final point I wanted to make on this Charities, as it is often said, are some of the worst offenders when it comes to unpaid internships I am a trustee of a charity Like all charities, it relies on volunteers Is it as simple, in terms of the line between ‘volunteer’ and ‘intern’ as, if you are not given any fixed time to turn up and there are no fixed hours expected of you, that is volunteering If you are expected to turn up for a certain number of hours, that is an internship Is the definition as simple as that, Colum? Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students): I not think it is in reality but I think there could be more done to define it Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): Also, it is worth recognising that there are only a certain number of organisations you can legally volunteer at You cannot be volunteering at Goldman Sachs, for example Tom Copley AM: I mentioned charities specifically, yes Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): Exactly That is why we get slightly distracted by talking about volunteers potentially in Parliament, where MPs not have a legal exemption from National Minimum Wage law It is only charities that have that exemption Charities are a slightly different case, but we have been speaking to a lot of charities who actually say that they are not comfortable with having a contradiction where they are trying to make things fairer in some sense but in their own workings they are actually being quite exclusive and effecting inequality We would say that the priority should be about enforcing the minimum wage law, which largely affects businesses, but that there is a strong role that can be played in terms of encouraging charities to live out their values One organisation that has been doing this is the trade union Unite, which has started doing work in terms of encouraging charities to pay Tom Copley AM: Thank you Tony Arbour AM: Can I please go back to the initial point about the Jobseeker’s Allowance and other ways of subsidising interns Ought they not be entitled, or be eligible perhaps, for loans in the same way that students are eligible for loans? Would that not deal with the problem of unpaid interns? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): The best way to solve the problem is to enforce the law so that people who are entitled to pay receive it That is the best instrument to deal with it With charities, you raise a valid point There may be schemes to encourage charities to pay their interns where perhaps they cannot afford to so For example, in Scotland there is a scheme called Third Sector Internship Scotland, which is a partnership between the Scottish Government, universities and charities It does provide funding so that people can living wage internships in the charity sector That might be something that would be worth looking at Tony Arbour AM: That is something Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): Sponsors could subsidise internships at charities Most large companies have a corporate social responsibility (CSR) department to some kind of giving back Why could charities not apply to companies and say, “Would you like to sponsor an internship programme in my charity and then pay the young person?” Stephen Knight AM (Chair): That is a very good idea That might well appear in one of our recommendations Gareth Bacon AM: It has been interesting listening to my colleagues getting fired up about this I did warn you that pay would be the thing that got everyone talking Listening to the debates, it has been very interesting because a lot of it is open to interpretation You can take absolutist positions on one side or another and, as with many things, the truth is probably somewhere down the middle I not often go out on a limb to defend my colleague Andrew [Dismore], but something that he talked about on the interns or volunteers in his office did strike a chord Interns are not forced to become interns What he was talking about was giving young people an opportunity that they can then use as a platform into other things There is something in that The question I would put to Colum and to Ben [Lyons] is along the lines of: would you not agree that if you put too much regulation around internships and you force everyone to pay the National Minimum Wage or rely on the legal solution rather than perhaps the compromise solution that Tony [Arbour] suggested - and whilst morally you would be completely right to so because work should be paid, etc - you not think there is a very big danger that you would then close off a lot of opportunities to people, particularly in the flooded graduate market? You would actually deny people opportunities and things that might differentiate them and help them into work, like at least two of the interns that we heard earlier on Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students): This is not about taking away opportunities for work experience or opportunities to develop yourself This is not about that at all This is about needing to set down some proper understanding of what the parameters of an internship are You said people are not forced to become interns The evidence we heard this morning would suggest otherwise This is clearly showing that you are now required to get an internship if you are going to get anywhere in work Gareth Bacon AM: Yes, but that is an assumption you have made You said yourself during the course of the discussion today that you not have evidence to back that up You may be right and intuitively a lot of people would agree with what you have said However, unless it is evidence-based, what you have said is an assumption It is about your members I understand that Your members obviously want to what they can to get into work You also have to think about things from the perspective of the employer who does not have to provide an internship to anybody Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students): Yes That is fair Actually, the things we heard from the individuals this morning suggested that they felt they had to take on internships I am going on what they were saying I totally agree We need more evidence and research on this We would definitely welcome an opportunity to work with you and to find that We have a really good pool of people that we can find stuff out from and we would really welcome that Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): There is an evidence base in terms of the YouGov polling that we were referring to earlier It showed that 43% of people aged between 18 and 24 say that unpaid internships act, or have acted, as a major barrier to getting a job Two out of five people thought about applying for an internship but have reconsidered it because they could not afford to work for free Also, two out of five people who have been offered an internship actually had to turn it down for financial reasons There is evidence that it is having a major deterrent effect in terms of young people looking to get into work I agree with you that we not want to burden companies with very complicated new legislation, which is why we are saying that it is about enforcing the law and raising awareness of what the law is Also, there is this four-week proposal, which we think will be a way of having quite a simple cutoff point which companies could understand You not need complicated HR advice There is no dealing with lots of Government loans It is just a simple rule that companies would understand, even if they not have a particularly big HR function Andrew Dismore AM: Going back to the point I was making earlier on, I am in two minds about this particular issue and if I become a Member of Parliament (MP) again, would I just not bother with it because it is too much hassle? Stephen Knight AM (Chair): It has changed now, actually There is a new scheme Andrew Dismore AM: I am going back to how it was The point is that normally if I was offering to lead volunteering, it would be two or three days a week and that would be it However, this four week rule would not work, either, because one of the things I could offer was Parliamentary security clearance, which is a huge advantage in trying to get a paid job in the Westminster village That takes three or four months to come through, so how you overcome that particular issue? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): You raise an important point, but Parliament is a relatively niche employer and most employers not have comprehensive security procedures There are a lot of MPs who manage to pay from across all three parties As you were alluding to, Stephen Andrew Dismore AM: It has changed now I am going back to a few years ago now Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA) has increased the amount that is available for staffing budgets We have seen quite a big shift in terms of Parliament In 2009, Unite did research which found that 18,000 hours of unpaid work was being done in Parliament every week We think that has changed and we have seen a step-change from all three of the major parties, actually The Conservatives have released advice in terms of what internships should look like in terms of parties The Liberal Democrats have a paid internship scheme in their headquarters (HQ) In the Labour Party, Ed Milliband [Leader of the Opposition] has said that Labour MPs should be paying their interns There is an encouraging shift from all three parties Stephen Knight AM (Chair): I suppose we have also heard to some extent that internships are becoming more and more prevalent and in some cases we have heard some evidence that young people felt they were essential That would fit with the survey evidence you have given, Ben A question for Ben: would you like to see the Mayor and the GLA more in London to promote good-quality internships and paid internships as well across the economy in London? Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): Yes, absolutely There is a really valuable role that the Mayor and the GLA can play which does not cost anything but is similar to the position that has been taken on the London Living Wage There is a way in which you can make a very strong rhetorical case that London is the UK centre for internships Companies should be playing fair They should be taking on board guidance such as the guidance that the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD) has put together with BIS so that internships are at good standards in London There is quite a powerful role that can be played there in terms of just taking that leadership Also, we have heard today that whilst the evidence that is out there suggests very strongly that paid internships are having a deterrent effect, there are areas of work where there is not sufficient quantitative research A really powerful piece of work could be done in terms of looking at unpaid internships and internships more generally in London, which would generally inform the debate The point you were making, Gareth [Bacon], around potentially having some kind of portal in London which would show paid internships The Government does have a code which it set up and was offering a potential kitemark in terms of fair access to professions, which we think is a good step However, there could be more done in terms of creating a site where paid, high-quality internships could be advertised in London That would be beneficial for everyone Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Thank you Does anyone else have a view in terms of what the Mayor and the Greater London Authority could be doing in London? Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): We have been working quite recently with Team London and I am quite impressed with the work they are doing They are offering lots of volunteering opportunities, but they are also trying to work with us and our members to get them recognised in their recruitment processes We had a bit of a discussion here about whether we have enough evidence that internships are essential and a barrier Maybe we not have that evidence on internships, but we have enough evidence overall that there is an experience bias amongst employers and it still exists Most employers would prefer somebody who has done a job before and who is experienced We need to look at other options for how young people can get that experience Volunteering is one of those options We need to get employers to recognise that a bit more and what young people have done even before leaving the education system in terms of those activities Yes, what Team London does in that area is great and we should more on that Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Finally, I am going to turn to Mark We have heard a few of the ideas about what the Mayor could be doing to support a better form of internship in London, particularly paid internships Is that the sort of thing you think the GLA could and should be doing? Mark Kleinman (Assistant Director – Economic and Business Policy, GLA): We could certainly look at it Just two words of caution on it, really If you look at the London Living Wage, we can promote the London Living Wage and the Mayor can go out and bang the drum The point is that there is a Living Wage Foundation and there is an accreditation process, so we are directing traffic of interested people towards that We would need to look at what the equivalent here is because I not think at all that the GLA should be taking on the Kitemarking role which has been talked about Kitemarking might be a good thing, somebody should that and we should be directing people towards that, even more so with a portal I not think that it should be a GLA function, but it might be something the GLA would want to support, possibly even financially, dare I say it It should be run in a way which actually reaches the target audience in a very straightforward way, but we can look at both of those Stephen Knight AM (Chair): We have an offer of funding there for the GLA to support a London-wide portal for paid internships Mark Kleinman (Assistant Director – Economic and Business Policy, GLA): Yes Jo Moxon (Head of Talent, ASOS): We are starting to notice that ours is a sandwich programme and students are opting to not take that sandwich year if they can because of the cost They have to still pay for their university year, regardless of them not being there Looking at the tuition structure may be interesting for us and also encouraging the universities in their funding to make sure that they carry through their obligations to check with the students in their placement year We find that that does not happen Gareth Bacon AM: Can you just say that again? Students doing a sandwich placement have to pay tuition fees even though they are not at university? Jo Moxon (Head of Talent, ASOS): Yes Gareth Bacon AM: I did not know that Stephen Knight AM (Chair): I experienced this with my own daughter who had a similar sort of issue It is a lower rate You not pay the full rate, usually It is a reduced rate Jo Moxon (Head of Talent, ASOS): That is correct Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Usually they are having virtually no contact from their university during that year It seems a bit of a rip-off Jo Moxon (Head of Talent, ASOS): On paper, it is to pay for the university to check in with the student that year, but it is patchy as to whether that happens or not Tom Copley AM: What form does that take? Jo Moxon (Head of Talent, ASOS): It should be a call to check in, “How are you doing? What is going on? What are you learning?” That does not always happen Stephen Knight AM (Chair): I am conscious that we are opening up a new field here While we have done that and we have somebody from NUS here, it is your area, really Are you concerned about sandwich students effectively being ripped off by universities charging fees for years when they are not actually at university? Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students): As I said at the start, the focus of our work on this has been around internships outside of study There is definitely a concern, though, about the fee issue Also, more than that, we have experienced some evidence from members You get your tuition fee cut as well, but you also get your maintenance loan cut Sometimes, if people are not even able to get access to well-paid internships in their sandwich year, they are actually in a bit of a mess as well You are less entitled to money in terms of maintenance loans but you are not getting paid perhaps enough to cover your travel, your rent or whatever else Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): If I could just say very quickly, it is striking that there are now dozens of universities which are refusing to advertise unpaid internships, which shows that they think unpaid internships and the requirement of doing unpaid internships actually has a negative effect on the employability of all of their students That is something that is happening right across the country as well as in London Several universities have asked us to come and give workshops on how to make sure you get a paid internship Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Good We have heard a great deal of interesting evidence Is there anything else that you have not had a chance to say from any of you? No In that case, I am going to thank you very much indeed for your attendance and for giving us the benefit of your experience It has been a very interesting session and we look forward to letting you have our findings when we publish the outcome Thank you very much ... to coach One of the best opportunities Brentford gave was to work for their under -1 6 s - their Milk Cup squad - where I would get the chance to lead part of the session, but with three interns... front of me I think there were 14 interns back then, 13 of whom came back to us In the second year it was 80%, so we were already growing at that point It was 17 in 2 013 and this year it is 24 because... for a particular role, but they are not a long-term employee and they are on a fixed-term contract? Victoria Harrison-Cook (Chief Press Officer - Campaigns and Strategy, TfL): Yes, exactly What