BCWI-S4E18-Rob-McKenna-Transcript

The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series “The Science Behind Leadership and Talent Development “ May 13, 2019 Rob McKenna Intro: Today’s podcast is brought to you by BCWI’s 360 leadership assessment Male: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where you’ll learn how to build a flourishing workplace culture that drives the ministry impact of your organization, your church, or your company, brought to you by the Best Christian Workplaces Institute Now, here’s your host, BCWI president, Al Lopus Al Lopus: Hello, and thanks for joining us here on the Flourishing Culture Podcast Today, we’re continuing our new series on the “Eight Ways to Build a Flourishing Workplace Culture.” Each week, we’re giving you a close-up look at each of the eight factors that make up the FLOURISH model It’s the key to building a healthier workplace culture that leads to greater organizational impact On our podcast today, we’re going to look at the fourth of the eight drivers that we call uplifting growth And my guest has plenty to share with you about uplifting growth as a critical driver to help improve and even transform your workplace culture Today, we have the pleasure of talking with Rob McKenna, the founder and CEO of WiLD Leaders, the creator of the WiLD toolkit, and he's the chair of the Industrial-Organizational Psychology department at Seattle Pacific University Rob has also been named one of the top-30 industrial-organizational psychologists and has been featured in Forbes magazine Rob, welcome to the Flourishing Culture Podcast Rob McKenna: I’m just grateful to be with you today, Al Al: This is great Rob, I'm looking forward to it We’re both in the studio together You know, Rob, you and I have known each other now for a long time, and I think the way we connected was because I heard an advertisment on a local Christian radio station that you were saying on that radio ad that if you wanted to be an effective leader of a Christian organization to be a best workplace that you needed to go to your program at SPU Is that what that ad was about? Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA Rob: I think it was I think I remember specifically saying, because I remember recording that in the studio, and I said, “Have you ever wondered what separates the best Christian workplaces from the worst?” I think that's what triggered our relationship going forward Al: I heard that, and I said, “I need to find out who this guy is.” That was the beginning of a great relationship You know, Rob, you and I have now worked together for a number of years, and you've become very familiar with the Best Christian Workplaces Institute Staff Engagement Survey, and sometimes people will ask about the validity and the soundness of the survey Can you talk about the validity? With your PhD background, how about the validity and what it means and why it matters to our ministry partners and our clients? Rob: Al, as I told you before, the kind of work that I work in the organizations, but also there’s a part of me that is that scientist, and so get requests from all kinds of folks seeking to validate the tools that they have or the assessments that they use And one of the first things that I will ask them when they call is, are you willing for your survey to be wrong? And most of the time, that ends the phone call, to be honest, because many people have invested a lot of resources in building something, and then they want to validation work after the fact because they're getting questions from potential clients or people that they're serving about the validity and the reliability of what they're providing I have always been intrigued—you were one of those organizations where when you ask that question, you were serious about it and willing to work on what is a pretty rigorous and intensive process of running an instrument like what BCWI provides through that scientific grinder And so it's been such a pleasure to have different folks from my teams or doctoral students or PhDs who have had a chance to validation work on your particular assessment over the years And it is a tough process, and so I've been grateful that you've been one of those organizations that has said, let's go Let's see if we can really assure that this thing is what it says it is and continue to look at not only the health of the people we’re invested in but the health of the instrument we're using And so that’s, yeah Al: It’s been a great relationship that we're able to tap the resources that you've got in your program, and it's been very helpful And I know that our clients certainly have appreciated it as well You know, Rob, I'm looking forward to all you have to share with us about the culture driver we called uplifting growth, and before we unwrap the gift it is to leaders, tell us about WiLD Leaders and what you're all about Rob: Oh man, Al You’re catching me on an interesting day I had this morning—you know those days that something happens and you realize this is going to be a date in time that I'm going to need to remember WiLD Leaders provides this tool called the WiLD toolkit, which is a set of whole leader development tools and assessments that are focused on developing leaders and employees, and we describe it as taking processes where we typically look at people and look with them And so in other words, changing the cultural narrative around development and learning and growth, and putting those tools in people's hands so that organizations could scale a leader and employee development So that's one of the processes we other than doing what we describe as whole leader education and then also certainly speaking and evangelizing the concept of what it really means to look at whole leader development Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA But this morning, I'm just excited to say that we have had this question come up over and over again as we travel about with people wanting to provide the tools to populations of folks who would not otherwise have access to them And one of the ways that you access different populations is through language translation, of course And so this morning was the first day we started the process of translating the WiLD toolkit and the first tool in the toolkit into Spanish It’s just a profound moment I know that this is something I've been dreaming about for years And so we got that process kicked off, and I just think about the ability we’ll have to provide the process in different parts of the globe where Spanish is the primary language I'm really excited about that Al: Wow, that’s great Now, Rob, I’ve got to ask you, WiLD—I think of a leader with long, curly hair that’s just like a mad scientist—but it actually stands for something, doesn’t it Rob: It does stand for something WiLD, the acronym, is whole and intentional leader development The acronym itself means something because we think a lot about what it means to develop whole people and bringing in their whole story and to provide tools and systems that help us to be intentional and help us to scaffold our developmental journey, which is complex You know, I described psychology not as the soft science but the harder science, because studying and providing developmental processes for humans is a whole different thing, that are focused on leaders and, finally, that it's about development It's about people who are willing to edit And so that's what that WiLD acronym of whole and intentional leader development is about There is another story around WiLD that I'll ask people when I get a chance to talk about this is I will ask people, what is your WiLD story? And if there was one thing that I am driven by is that each of us has one A friend of mine from Texas once said, he said, “Rob, you're about the conversations that we whisper out loud that scream out inside of us.” And I've been doing this long enough to see that with leaders, they have a story, much of which sometimes they can't share the complete story because we won't fully understand that but yet need some structure and scaffolding to get at the questions that they're still trying to answer, even those who have been around the block for a while So that's what WiLD is about, whole and intentional leader development Al: Yeah And we all know, every listener knows, that in order to really grow in your leadership, it needs to be a whole-person focused and intentional at the same time That's for sure You know, when you step back and look at what's happening with WiLD Leaders, what's one thing that you just feel tremendously grateful for? Al: Oh man More personal to me, I feel tremendously grateful by the team that I have right now, to be honest This is something—you've known me for a long time, and someone asked us, we were in India this last January It’s the sixth year in a row we've been there, and I was with a colleague And they asked my colleague, they said, “How long has it taken Rob to build this process?” And my friend said, “About 25 years,” because it really has been the culmination of a career of people who have been around me And now when I look at the team that we have in place at WiLD Leaders that is committed to this mission, that's one thing I'm grateful for Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA The other thing that's been—that just never ceases to amaze me is I love being able to speak about whole-leader development, but one thing that's been so true to kind of what I'm about is be able to speak about it but then to offer a person a way, a structure, and a system that is not about evaluating them but invites their story alongside metrics that help them see progress And so I'm just grateful for this moment we're in right now and seeing the impact that we're able to have It's just, the gratefulness that I hear from the leaders who say, the ones who are more seasoned say, “Where was this when I was younger,” and the ones who are just getting started saying, “Oh my goodness I've never had this kind of conversation happening I'm ready for what's next.” So, feeling a lot of gratefulness, so thank you for asking right now Al: Yeah Course your response points us to uplifting growth, which is what we call, our name for the factor that spells U for uplifting growth, but it's leadership and leadership development, really And in the next few minutes, I'd like you to take us on the WiLD journey, so to speak, and help us understand how leaders develop and grow And as you and I have discussed earlier in other conversations, we want to take our listeners through three essential doorways that each leader ultimately must face and navigate And the first one is the leader’s challenge Let's talk about the leader’s challenge You've worked with a lot of leaders You've worked with leaders in churches, higher education, and businesses of all sizes, including very big businesses So here's the two-part question First, what are some of the common themes and some of the common challenges that leaders are facing today? Rob: Mm Oh man I don’t know if our world is more complex People say that often It's a very popular thing You know, the volatility and the uncertainty and the complexity and all the things that we're facing, so I don't know That's an interesting question I ask myself I know that it, whether it's more complex, it is complex And the leaders that we're working with are facing more difficult questions than ever before You know that from early in my career, paradox has been a big part of what a lot of the things that I've built have been about and mostly because what I see leaders facing that no one else—before you become a leader you don't have to face completely is competing tensions, both of which are true And so it's easy to point the finger at leaders about the decisions that they make, but we're working with leaders every day who know things that they not only can't tell because maybe there's some sort of principle reason they're not telling, but legally they can't share certain things And so when you talk about leaders, it's one of the things that I get pretty convicted about is that I don't really care that much about leadership I really don't I care deeply about the leader who has stepped out and gone first and is making these decisions but is completely isolated and alone This is the psychologist in me, but two things that we see is there is so much isolation and loneliness, because as soon as someone steps out and goes first, now they don't know who to talk to And so getting them surrounded is a part of—it's actually one of the tools we created was to help them get strategically surrounded because without that, they are isolated, they don't have people to give them feedback, or who support them, whose shoulders they can cry on when things are falling apart And, yes, leaders are people, too, and need that Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA The second thing that leaders are facing, I think this is increasing because of this complexity, is that you get one good question beneath the surface of a leader And when I say good question, a WiLD question, a question that they know is important but they have not answered yet And brokenness is always there I'm not saying that redemption isn't there as well, but when I talk about my focus on leaders, my heart goes to, these are the people that are going to make some of the most important decisions in our world about what's next, and we so rarely talk about—we talk about the things that they lead and the movements that they're a part of, but we don't necessarily support them well, whether it's someone getting started for the first time at 25 or someone who's transitioned industries at 65 I hope that answers your question, but it's kind of where my heart goes with that Al: Yeah You know, what you’ve really brought forward, Rob is just, again, the importance of focusing on leaders as individuals and not just as people in front I love what you say about leaders are the ones that go first Really, that's a picture that all of us can see I also like the other half of that, leaders are the ones that go first, and then they look around and they see that actually people are following them And that's the other definition of leadership Secondly, in your mind, what are some of the challenges that leaders face in creating a healthy workplace culture? Rob: I know that there are different opinions on this, and maybe it’s because of my emphasis but it’s also because of what I’ve seen, is that I believe that leaders are driving culture And so I think about the work that you in helping to more accurately assess so that leaders can see, so what is going on here, because otherwise they don't know And this is where I've always seen that connective tissue between your work and understanding what's happening in culture So then what you do? And I know that you're involved in that process as well I tend to have this heavy emphasis on, so now that the leader understands what the culture is about, now is the time they're going to have to be willing to edit I use a word, I use edit-ability, and it's not a word, but it's, what I'm talking about is that development—so, leader development—development is, by its very nature, change and that change at the individual level requires someone who is going to have to be willing to have the backspace key hit on things that sometimes will even feel like they're a part of their character We're talking about fundamental change in leaders so that they could serve, not only serve themselves better but, most importantly, to serve the people around them better And so from my perspective, leadership is so key You know, Edgar Schein’s book Leadership and Culture, I used it when I was younger, trying to figure out, how did you put those two things in the same book? But now that I've been at it for a while, I realized that leaders are the people in the position of influence to set the standard for what things are going to be like, not just what we're going to And I think so often we focus so much on the actions as opposed to building charters for how we're actually going to work together and be together It's such a powerful combination, I think so important Al: I agree That’s fantastic So, as we just talked about, naming the challenges is the first doorway a leader must pass through and navigate But now let's talk about another door, and I call this the leader’s response And I really liked what you're saying, Rob, about edit-ability because in order to edit what you've done as a leader, which is important, and even who you are, you have had to receive Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA feedback in one way or another in order for that to happen And creating a culture of feedback is important in leadership development and to become editable as a leader I love your thought there You know, you've studied the development of leadership for a number of years, and in light of the leadership challenges you've just touched on, what does the research say about the best ways leaders develop? That's always a big question How leaders really develop? And maybe another way to ask it is, how does some of the best leaders around respond to challenges and thus learn to be such good leaders, because oftentimes it's the crucible that leaders go through to actually help them learn to be good leaders What are your thoughts on that? Rob: There was a study that published in a book in 1988 by a person named Morgan McCall and other authors, and the book was called The Lessons of Experience And many of us who are invested in the idea of how could we a better job of developing leaders, that study built the foundation for what we today And one of the primary findings that is not that—it's intuitively obvious but more difficult in practice is that leaders develop on the job And so that was really important because if you looked at where people were spending most of their developmental dollars, it was on training And so it wasn't dismissing the idea that training was important but that training needed to be job relevant, relevant to the work that we're doing every day That was a groundbreaking piece of work that I could tell you about how it laid the foundation for all kinds of things around executive competencies and everything else And Morgan's work has been such—he's had such an influence on me throughout my career The biggest opportunity that we have now is to figure out how to create developmental processes that are job relevant, because it was interesting Some of the experiences, so if we know that they develop on the job, it's trying to understand the kinds of experiences that were key And so as you mentioned, failures and mistakes were at the top of the list Some of the most common things Role models were high So people having an experience with someone and they said, I want to be like this person, or not.” It was interesting, Al Role modeling was one of the top experiences that leaders faced, and one-third of the time, it was a bad role model So it's like we're learning, we have the capacity to learn whether or not it's a good or bad experience, that's critical So it made me think about, just recently I had a conversation with a CEO from a huge business I mean, the scope and scale was like at the level of government work It wasn't government work, but it's just— it's unbelievable scale And he was talking about supply-chain management It's a business term for if you can't reduce your costs on the front end and you can't increase your price on the back end, you've got to figure out how to—the only place you can scale is in the middle And so we started with that, but what it quickly got into was a conversation around change management And when it went from change management, it went directly to leadership development, to developing leaders, because what you had as the fundamental issue is a team of 12 senior executives, three of whom were really difficult and unwilling to edit into this future So what was a business on-the-job problem of supply chain—you know what I mean by that? There's a whole other conversation—really was an issue of leader change that you can't even begin the process of looking at processes and systems and supplies unless you've got leaders who are understanding and willing to take a look at a new way of doing their work So, that’s a longer answer, but I just, yeah, it’s a powerful thing Al: Wow Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders Female: Discover your key strengths as a leader, and identify your greatest development opportunities It's yours with the 360 leadership assessment by the Best Christian Workplaces Institute Gain a true, accurate measure of your own leadership from a biblical worldview Join the more than 1,000 leaders and their colleagues now putting their 360 insights and lessons to work every day You'll receive a comprehensive 40-page report, development guide, and coaching session that will help you reinvigorate and transform your leadership for good Start today by calling 206-230-8111 Or visit us at bcwinstitute.org The Best Christian Workplaces’s 360 leadership assessment It’s your first important step to transforming your leadership effectiveness Al: And now back to today’s special guest Surely, you must have a favorite story about how the health of the workplace culture is absolutely critical to how leaders successfully respond to the challenges facing an organization Any thoughts on that? Rob: This is more going—it’s a little broad a story, but one of the things that has emerged as a popularized—well, not popularized yet but it's coming—dependent variable That's, again, sometimes the scientist in me pops up, but an outcome of leadership effectiveness or the kind of effective leader we're looking for that I think is a really interesting concept is the concept of adaptive performance It’s emerged in the last few years as something that is absolutely critical, and so I've been on a few panels with other folks who are doing research or doing applied work in corporations or in nonprofits, and people are very interested in this concept of what would it look like to build an employee base or a culture that was focused on adaptive performance? So some of the topics end up being a little bit more squishy, or some people perceive them as soft, around self-awareness, around a willingness to pivot quickly on the sort of the more negative side to say someone who will not focus on blame first but will take personal responsibility And certainly conscientiousness and results are an important part of those things But that ability to pivot quickly and to be more composed under pressure when those moments come are all part of what that adaptive-performance conversation looks like And so instead of a story, I was at a conference last year, the Society for Industrial Organizational Psychology, and it's coming up, and I'm on a panel next week in Washington, D.C., where one of the panels is going to be about learning agility, which is, of course, a part of that So how we think about finding and developing more agile leaders? Al: And leaders that are composed Rob: Absolutely, absolutely Al: And I’m just thinking about the book that you've written called Composed—we haven't called that out yet—The Heart and Science of Leading Under Pressure But Rob, at BCWI, we talk about leadership, we naturally look at the eight essential factors that drive workplace culture, and these eight drivers spell, actually, FLOURISH, and uplifting growth is the fourth And as we've talked about, uplifting growth Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA really means improving the performance of individuals, groups, and the organization overall to meet the challenges of a changing world And I like your idea of adaptive leadership because that fits right in Most significantly, growth comes from job-related experience—you've already mentioned that— along with interacting with others, including managers, mentors, and coaches, and also there are formal-education events that are helpful As you can appreciate, learning new things increases an employee’s engagement—I think we would both agree to that—and allows an organization to really maintain and improve its effectiveness How about a story of a leader that you've worked with whose talents, their fit, their giftings, their performance, you know, really models or exemplifies uplifting growth? Rob: The first one that comes to mind is an organization that I've had the chance to work with over the years, so it was a longer-play investment in them I was brought in because of my relationship to the president, and the start of this was eight or nine years ago, and it was at a time where you got an organization that's struggling, and I came in—it's one of those engagements, Al, where you feel like you're doing the right thing, trying to work with an organization where you've got leaders who are trying to figure it out, organization that is flailing a bit, very strong leader who's been in the role for a few months So I went at this and did my thing about really driving directly at developing and investing in this leadership group But this is also a new team, a team of people where I wasn't sure whether this was going to be the right team for the long haul And I got back on the plane afterwards and thought, I don't know if that was a success or not And it's just kind of the reality of leader development or organizational development is by its very nature it's change, and so it kind of hurts a little bit sometimes for people that we're working with And in this case, for me, too, because I wanted them to be pleased So I got back on the plane And I just have had a chance to re-engage with this organization eight or nine years later And so I came in, as soon as I stepped near this organization, some of the things that they had set out as strategic initiatives now were in play Buildings were built, everything looked different, the leadership team looked different About half the people were still there And I was so amazed First of all, the long-play investment that it takes, because we want things to be successful so quickly But I think about this particular leader, and I had a chance to hear him speak out recently, and one of the most fascinating pieces of this that I had just come off of a session of speaking right before him, and I was talking about the power of questions I was saying that most of our development is not answers but approaching the questions we haven't answered yet And so I walk into this huge session where this leader is addressing not only his organization but people from across the community And his first slide goes up, and it says “Leadership is about questions.” And it was an affirmation certainly, but, more importantly, he then shared stories about the questions he's asking every day, that every day he goes in and he says, is the vision right? And I think one of the most powerful indicators that you get a chance to see across all the organizations that you work with is to see the people who are following And when I say that, I don't mean, like, lemmings I mean these are strong leaders with a sense of themselves who are saying, I'm in And I would say that it has taken a—it's a tremendous amount of courage to get there because I imagine the amount of resistance that that leadership team has faced over the eight or nine years since I was there, but it was just really inspiring and a recent experience And I love it that he started off and he said, “Leadership is as much about questions as anything else.” Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA Al: That’s really come to be my experience as well, Rob I mean, in a consulting role, you’re kind of expected to have the answers, but it’s really the questions you ask that move things forward, especially I like appreciative types of questions You know, another thing that I like is your title, master coach Why developing leaders need a master coach? Rob: So, we certify coaches and facilitators to use the WiLD toolkit Let me describe our coaches first From the get-go, what we’ve been looking for is people who have the heart of a therapist and the savvy of an executive, but so often have been neither I'm not saying they couldn't have been one or the other, but they’re people who have a discerning character, an ability to see beyond the surface, and at the same time, have some experience or exposure or understanding of what it means to scale, to understand what these leaders are facing in terms of the people and the systems and the organizations they're responsible for That's one start for that in describing the kinds of coaches that we're training up But I think the other piece that is important about that is it's taken me a long time to actually get on board I would say that I have been someone who's pushed back a bit on the whole coaching idea and industry, and part of it's because I never wanted that to be my way of making a living, even though I think I'm decent at it But I also realized that, like most things in life, we need maintenance I go back to my car You know, it has to go in the shop, and I think—not that people are cars, but at the same time, all of us in our leadership roles need reminders and someone who will encourage us, someone who will have the credibility to highlight certain questions with us that no one else can understand I mean, back to that concept of loneliness is that leaders need a safe place beyond the boundaries of their own organization so typically, to be able to talk about the hard things so that they can make the better decisions So I'm on board now You know, whether you call them coaches or whatever, but people that could connect the challenges of the job with the challenges of the heart would be more of a whole coach in my mind Al: You know, we all know, Rob, that especially those of us that have been involved in athletics, we better when we have a coach, don’t we That's a pure example Let's talk about the third doorway now in our discussion, and in this third doorway, it's really about the leader’s contribution to the organization and its workplace culture You and your team at WiLD Leaders have created this WiLD toolkit, as we've already talked about, and it's a way that organizations can scale the whole-person and leader-development process Tell us a bit more about what it is and how this works How can it help build a whole leader and scale the leader-development process? Rob: So, to be very literal, I’ll tell you what it is, and I have an analogy I think that helps people make sense of it So what this literally is is a set of 10 whole-leader assessments We tell people when they use the process, these are tools not tests So often, people feel like when they're filling out something that this is a test and I'm going to fail or I’m going to pass it, based on my responses But these are—it's a set of whole-leader-development tools, so people respond to a variety of questions, research-based questions, that are based on nearly four decades of research on the developmental journey of leaders, across 10 different developmental moments or these different assessments And then they receive a Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA PDF feedback report that's personalized to them that gives them both some qualitative or narrative information about their story, alongside certain measures or categories that will help them see how to make progress and movement forward And there are a lot of other good tools that are more single tools that are based on personality or behavior or competencies, and so there's a lot of that included, but this is what we describe as that whole-person developmental process So it hits things like calling and purpose, certainly how people show up under pressure, how to invest in the development of other leaders around you, how to understand and audit your own experience base and the experiences that you need to get next in order to move your organization or your team forward So it's this set of tools And one of the best ways I've heard it described is when you go to camp, you go to summer camp, and you have a great experience Or you go to an airport seminar and you hear some wonderful information One of the challenges that I experienced over the years is that people have a difficult time making it stick beyond two days after their return home And so we've built a process and a system that can be embedded within an organizational context to actually change the nature of the learning and development conversations that are taking place, alongside the systems and the products or services that people are trying to deliver So that was the intention with these 10 sets of tools was actually to create a different set of conversation across teams in our organization That is the WiLD toolkit You know I get excited about this: the user interface, the way that people interact with it is it's their set of tools So we bookshelf their tools so they actually can go in and they can share them with other people and set developmental goals And so we're really excited about the process Al: And I really like the idea, as I've gotten to know these tools, this is great for any leader, especially a leader that's busy, this is a great year-long development program You can one of these tools once a month for 10 months, develop development plans from them, and it's really a great program over time as well You know, Rob, I've noticed that you're speaking at the upcoming CLA Outcomes Conference April 16 and 19 in Dallas Give us a glimpse perhaps of a little bit of an appetizer of what you're going to cover and why people need to register Rob: Yeah I’m really excited about that moment because they actually published an article that came out before the conference, and I called it a Whole-Leader Reformation When we wrote up that article, our focus was to think about, what does it mean to completely reform the way we think about wholeleader development? And I have another conviction that if we just focus on pieces of a person's growth and development that that can be careless and, at its worst, could even be reckless There are things happening in the broad scope of a leader's life and a reality that are affecting their decisions every day And so one of the biggest concepts I'm going to be talking about is a focus on the one, is what I call it, that instead of us thinking of—this is why I talk about leaders instead of leadership is that when we talk about leadership, we lose sight of the person And so back to the idea that they go first is that if we think about leaders and an actual leader, we begin to think more intentionally and effectively about Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA 10 what their actual experience is like, because we're going to have to understand that in order to invest in their development So that's the first piece The second piece is what I've suggested already is that so often when we think about growth and development, we think about our ideal self in relationship to our current self And there's this distance where I want to be that ideal And the issue with that is so often this is why we see one-off answers to questions about leadership is that we assume that there are answers that are going to fit everybody And I want to suggest that it's more about the questions than it is the answers Even a simple question—I can't believe how many senior leaders have struggled with this question that's asked inside the WiLD toolkit—what is your organization trying to accomplish this year? And it's crazy how many executives in senior roles in major corporations don't know the answer to that And I'm not blaming them These are successful places in some ways I think it's a very different conversation if we're focused on leader development as a long play I recently saw that—I'm named after Robert the Bruce, the King of Scots, and I had read something about him that it was an ancestor of his 300 years later who ended up in a role of royalty within that system And I was thinking, 300 years later, that whole-person development is a willingness to think about the ways that our leadership will influence things that we may never actually see come to fruition, that it may be lived out in a generation or multiple generations beyond us, but we can actually see it if we imagined what the possibilities might be That's why I was reminding myself about the translation to Spanish with the WiLD toolkit I mean, I think about it, the possibilities of 50 years later, long after I'm gone, that someone may be using these tools in Quito, Ecuador, blows my mind, you know? But I have to be intentional about that So that's the last piece of what I'm going to be excited to talk about there Al: Yeah You know, Rob, as you well know, we at BCWI believe that a healthy culture is a true and worthy end in itself And we also believe that a healthy-to-flourishing culture leads to organizational growth and greater organizational impact or ministry impact in many cases How have you—let’s get personal here—how have you grown as a leader and as a person over the past year or over the past several years? Tell us a story of how your own growth has contributed to your current workplace culture and perhaps even the impact of WiLD Leaders Incorporated Rob: Well, one thing that's related I got three things I want to say to that One is that, that are related all three, is that I have lived long enough now to see things come back around That's one of the benefits, I guess, of getting older is having a chance to see things come around that I just, you thinking, man, they come back around Amazing things But one is that I saw recently—so I watched the Foo Fighters documentary I'm a fan, and I watched that, and I watched the relationship between Dave Grohl and Taylor Hawkins and realized that I am just like those two guys I am wired to be in a band And in places in my own leadership career, what I’ve been able to lead with others, it’s been a lot better recipe for me And it also, when you begin to take the flak that you're going to catch in these roles, it's a lot different So that's the first thing that's been profound for me is that it doesn't make me needy; it makes me who I am And so that's been a powerful piece Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA 11 The second thing is that, this is to be honest I've run a consulting firm for years, and you know what consulting firms is they invoice people, and it's a very different process to run a profit-and-loss organization And that's been a thing in more recent years that has been—over the years, I've worked with a lot of corporate people But if you watch Shark Tank, you watch what entrepreneurs do, where they have the burden of payroll on their shoulders, it's a very different experience that I'm grateful that I'm able to understand those folks in ways I never had before because it's my part of my role now And then, finally, has been, even as my travel schedule has increased, is giving myself permission to model what I'm trying to be and what I hope people that work with me would as well is keeping my life—I don't want to say in line, because I don't know if that's the way it actually works, but to be mindful and strategic about decisions that would impact my family and my life in ways that might not be great That's part of my whole journey, and so I'm doing my best to be intentional in using the processes I developed for others to try to be clearer about some of those boundaries Al: Yeah That's great You know, Rob, we've really enjoyed all we've learned today and appreciate you sharing that You know in light of all we've talked about, give us one final thought that you'd like to leave with leaders and all of our listeners Rob: The big thing I think that I would want people to hear, if you're someone who has stepped out and gone first, either for the first time, that you are not alone It's been something that has resonated with people to remind you that there are other people out there who are experiencing what you are experiencing There are probably many people around you who are, and that there are intentional pathways in there To get surrounded is probably the key starting place, is to begin to strategically and intentionally look for people who are having a similar kind of experience And it's like if you buy a Volkswagen, you see a Volkswagen everywhere Once you start looking for those relationships intentionally, they'll show up And so if it's feeling like you're taking a lot of shots from folks and because you have stepped out and gone first, that's actually normal And the next intentional thing to would be to begin to think in structured ways about the development you need around you next, because you're not alone Al: Yeah Intentional development that you need around you That's fantastic All right Rob McKenna, chair of the Industrial-Organizational Psychology program at Seattle Pacific University, and founder and master coach of WiLD Leaders here in Seattle, thank you for sharing your wisdom, insights, and stories, and thank you for extending your ministry to the leaders who have been listening and benefiting from all you've shared with us today Rob: So grateful for your friendship, Al, and for our long-play relationship, too Al: And to our listeners, I want to thank you for joining us on the Flourishing Culture Podcast and our new continuing series, the Eight Ways to Build a Flourishing Culture Next week, we’ll take a look at uplifting growth, the fourth of the eight drivers that make up the FLOURISH model I think you’re really going to enjoy what next week’s guest has to say and about how you and your teams can take your workplace culture to the next level Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA 12 Thanks for investing this time in your workplace culture today If there’s an insight, story, or action step that you’ve enjoyed in these past few minutes, please share it with others, and they will benefit as well And please review the show wherever you listen to podcasts This program is copyrighted by the Best Christian Workplaces Institute All rights reserved Our writer is Mark Cutshall; our social-media assistant is Solape Osoba; and this is Al Lopus, reminding you that a healthy culture drives greater impact and growth in your organization I’ll see you again soon on the Flourishing Culture Podcast Male: For a free transcript of today’s podcast, visit blog.bcwinstitute.org Join us next week for another one-to-one interview with a respected Christian leader The Flourishing Culture Podcast with Al Lopus is a presentation of the Best Christian Workplaces Institute, helping Christian organizations set the standard as the best, most effective places to work in the world Best Christian Workplaces Institute Mercer Island, WA 13